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From: Jeremiah D Jordan <jeremiah@datastax.com>
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Subject: Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 14:13:28 -0500
References: <CALdd-zh4j8y3Lb9kSrOV72CSVY1GtWBuWEhoQY1f00X4NYVj9A@mail.gmail.com> <C091A9B7-B212-4FA7-B9CF-06675A56352E@gmail.com> <9981D157-FFDF-4A91-8DB3-67C10C472D6D@jpl.nasa.gov> <04FCACD9-DB06-49A5-9C77-A986E99436B9@gmail.com> <85782C0E-AB45-4856-8ABE-70B661EDA9FD@jpl.nasa.gov> <CAHjqPuJspY7mq+MRs38Q64O-f9BEv_=XJCZXLqo=HtLR8Y3f8w@mail.gmail.com> <3FF80221-EBB0-4175-8002-D521D111DEE9@apple.com>
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org
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archived-at: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 19:13:43 -0000

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> 1. I=E2=80=99d suggest setting up an issues@cassandra.apache.org =
mailing list which posts all changes to JIRA tickets (comments, issue =
reassignments, status changes). This could be subscribed to like any =
other mailing list, and while this list would be high volume it =
increases transparency of what=E2=80=99s happening across the project.

For anyone who wants to follow that stream for Apache Cassandra we have =
commits@ setup for this.  =
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?commits@cassandra.apache.org =
<https://lists.apache.org/list.html?commits@cassandra.apache.org>

> On Aug 15, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Dave Lester <dave_lester@apple.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> For all Apache projects, mailing lists are the source of truth. See: =
"If it didn't happen on a mailing list, it didn't happen." =
https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html#is-there-a-code-of-conduct-for=
-apache-projects =
<https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html#is-there-a-code-of-conduct-fo=
r-apache-projects>
>=20
> In response to Jason=E2=80=99s question, here are two things I=E2=80=99v=
e seen work well in the Apache Mesos community:
>=20
> 1. I=E2=80=99d suggest setting up an issues@cassandra.apache.org =
mailing list which posts all changes to JIRA tickets (comments, issue =
reassignments, status changes). This could be subscribed to like any =
other mailing list, and while this list would be high volume it =
increases transparency of what=E2=80=99s happening across the project.
>=20
> For Apache Mesos, we have a issues@mesos list: =
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?issues@mesos.apache.org =
<https://lists.apache.org/list.html?issues@mesos.apache.org> for this =
purpose. It can be hugely valuable for keeping tabs on what=E2=80=99s =
happening in the project. If there=E2=80=99s interest in creating this =
for Cassandra, here=E2=80=99s a link to the original INFRA ticket as a =
reference: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7971 =
<https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7971>
>=20
> 2. Apache Mesos has formalized process of design documents / feature =
development, to encourage community discussion prior to being committed =
=E2=80=94 this discussion takes place on the mailing list and often has =
less to do with the merits of a particular patch as much as it does on =
an overall design, its relationship to dependencies, its usage, or =
larger issues about the direction of a feature. These discussions belong =
on the mailing list.
>=20
> To keep these discussions / design documents connected to JIRA we =
attach links to JIRA issues. For example: =
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MESOS/Design+docs+--+Shared+Li=
nks =
<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MESOS/Design+docs+--+Shared+L=
inks>. The design doc approach is more of a formalization of what =
Jonathan originally proposed.
>=20
> Dave
>=20
>> On Aug 15, 2016, at 11:34 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbrown@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Chris,
>>=20
>> Can you give a few examples of other healthy Apache projects which =
you feel
>> would be good example? Note: I'm not trying to bait the conversation, =
but
>> am genuinely interested in what other successful projects do.
>>=20
>> Thanks
>>=20
>> Jason
>>=20
>> On Monday, August 15, 2016, Chris Mattmann <mattmann@apache.org> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> s/dev list followers/<your community>/
>>>=20
>>> That=E2=80=99s (one of) the disconnect(s). It=E2=80=99s not *you the =
emboldened, powerful
>>> PMC*
>>> and then everyone else.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 8/15/16, 11:25 AM, "Jeremy Hanna" <jeremy.hanna1234@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>   Regarding high level linking, if I=E2=80=99m in irc or slack or =
hipchat or a
>>> mailing list thread, it=E2=80=99s easy to reference a Jira ID and =
chat programs can
>>> link to it and bots can bring up various details.  I don=E2=80=99t =
think a hash id
>>> for a mailing list is as simple or memorable.
>>>=20
>>>   A feature of a mailing list thread is that it can go in different
>>> directions easily.  The burden is that it will be harder to follow =
in the
>>> future if you=E2=80=99re trying to sort out implementation details.  =
So for high
>>> level discussion, the mailing list is great.  When getting down to =
the
>>> actual work and discussion about that focused work, that=E2=80=99s =
where a tool
>>> like Jira comes in.  Then it is reference-able in the changes.txt =
and other
>>> things.
>>>=20
>>>   I think the approach proposed by Jonathan is a nice way to keep =
dev
>>> list followers informed but keeping ticket details focused.
>>>=20
>>>> On Aug 15, 2016, at 1:12 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattmann@apache.org
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> How is it harder to point someone to mail?
>>>>=20
>>>> Have you seen lists.apache.org?
>>>>=20
>>>> Specifically:
>>>> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@cassandra.apache.org
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 8/15/16, 10:08 AM, "Jeremiah D Jordan" =
<jeremiah.jordan@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>  I like keeping things in JIRA because then everything is in one
>>> place, and it is easy to refer someone to it in the future.
>>>>  But I agree that JIRA tickets with a bunch of design discussion
>>> and POC=E2=80=99s and such in them can get pretty long and =
convoluted.
>>>>=20
>>>>  I don=E2=80=99t really like the idea of moving all of that =
discussion to
>>> email which makes it has harder to point someone to it.  Maybe a =
better
>>> idea would be to have a =E2=80=9Cdesign/POC=E2=80=9D JIRA and an =
=E2=80=9Cimplementation=E2=80=9D JIRA.
>>> That way we could still keep things in JIRA, but the final decision =
would
>>> be kept =E2=80=9Cclean=E2=80=9D.
>>>>=20
>>>>  Though it would be nice if people would send an email to the dev
>>> list when proposing =E2=80=9Cdesign=E2=80=9D JIRA=E2=80=99s, as not =
everyone has time to follow
>>> every JIRA ever made to see that a new design JIRA was created that =
they
>>> might be interested in participating on.
>>>>=20
>>>>  My 2c.
>>>>=20
>>>>  -Jeremiah
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Jonathan Ellis <jbellis@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A long time ago, I was a proponent of keeping most development
>>> discussions
>>>>> on Jira, where tickets can be self contained and the threadless
>>> nature
>>>>> helps keep discussions from getting sidetracked.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> But Cassandra was a lot smaller then, and as we've grown it has
>>> become
>>>>> necessary to separate out the signal (discussions of new features
>>> and major
>>>>> changes) from the noise of routine bug reports.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I propose that we take advantage of the dev list to perform that
>>>>> separation.  Major new features and architectural improvements
>>> should be
>>>>> discussed first here, then when consensus on design is achieved,
>>> moved to
>>>>> Jira for implementation and review.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think this will also help with the problem when the initial idea
>>> proves
>>>>> to be unworkable and gets revised substantially later after much
>>>>> discussion.  It can be difficult to figure out what the conclusion
>>> was, as
>>>>> review comments start to pile up afterwards.  Having that
>>> discussion on the
>>>>> list, and summarizing on Jira, would mitigate this.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jonathan Ellis
>>>>> Project Chair, Apache Cassandra
>>>>> co-founder, http://www.datastax.com
>>>>> @spyced
>=20


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