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From Jeremiah D Jordan <jerem...@datastax.com>
Subject Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development
Date Mon, 15 Aug 2016 19:13:28 GMT
> 1. I’d suggest setting up an issues@cassandra.apache.org mailing list which posts all
changes to JIRA tickets (comments, issue reassignments, status changes). This could be subscribed
to like any other mailing list, and while this list would be high volume it increases transparency
of what’s happening across the project.

For anyone who wants to follow that stream for Apache Cassandra we have commits@ setup for
this.  https://lists.apache.org/list.html?commits@cassandra.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/list.html?commits@cassandra.apache.org>

> On Aug 15, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Dave Lester <dave_lester@apple.com> wrote:
> 
> For all Apache projects, mailing lists are the source of truth. See: "If it didn't happen
on a mailing list, it didn't happen." https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html#is-there-a-code-of-conduct-for-apache-projects
<https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html#is-there-a-code-of-conduct-for-apache-projects>
> 
> In response to Jason’s question, here are two things I’ve seen work well in the Apache
Mesos community:
> 
> 1. I’d suggest setting up an issues@cassandra.apache.org mailing list which posts all
changes to JIRA tickets (comments, issue reassignments, status changes). This could be subscribed
to like any other mailing list, and while this list would be high volume it increases transparency
of what’s happening across the project.
> 
> For Apache Mesos, we have a issues@mesos list: https://lists.apache.org/list.html?issues@mesos.apache.org
<https://lists.apache.org/list.html?issues@mesos.apache.org> for this purpose. It can
be hugely valuable for keeping tabs on what’s happening in the project. If there’s interest
in creating this for Cassandra, here’s a link to the original INFRA ticket as a reference:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7971 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7971>
> 
> 2. Apache Mesos has formalized process of design documents / feature development, to
encourage community discussion prior to being committed — this discussion takes place on
the mailing list and often has less to do with the merits of a particular patch as much as
it does on an overall design, its relationship to dependencies, its usage, or larger issues
about the direction of a feature. These discussions belong on the mailing list.
> 
> To keep these discussions / design documents connected to JIRA we attach links to JIRA
issues. For example: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MESOS/Design+docs+--+Shared+Links
<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MESOS/Design+docs+--+Shared+Links>. The
design doc approach is more of a formalization of what Jonathan originally proposed.
> 
> Dave
> 
>> On Aug 15, 2016, at 11:34 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbrown@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Chris,
>> 
>> Can you give a few examples of other healthy Apache projects which you feel
>> would be good example? Note: I'm not trying to bait the conversation, but
>> am genuinely interested in what other successful projects do.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Jason
>> 
>> On Monday, August 15, 2016, Chris Mattmann <mattmann@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> s/dev list followers/<your community>/
>>> 
>>> That’s (one of) the disconnect(s). It’s not *you the emboldened, powerful
>>> PMC*
>>> and then everyone else.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 8/15/16, 11:25 AM, "Jeremy Hanna" <jeremy.hanna1234@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>   Regarding high level linking, if I’m in irc or slack or hipchat or a
>>> mailing list thread, it’s easy to reference a Jira ID and chat programs can
>>> link to it and bots can bring up various details.  I don’t think a hash id
>>> for a mailing list is as simple or memorable.
>>> 
>>>   A feature of a mailing list thread is that it can go in different
>>> directions easily.  The burden is that it will be harder to follow in the
>>> future if you’re trying to sort out implementation details.  So for high
>>> level discussion, the mailing list is great.  When getting down to the
>>> actual work and discussion about that focused work, that’s where a tool
>>> like Jira comes in.  Then it is reference-able in the changes.txt and other
>>> things.
>>> 
>>>   I think the approach proposed by Jonathan is a nice way to keep dev
>>> list followers informed but keeping ticket details focused.
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 15, 2016, at 1:12 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattmann@apache.org
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> How is it harder to point someone to mail?
>>>> 
>>>> Have you seen lists.apache.org?
>>>> 
>>>> Specifically:
>>>> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@cassandra.apache.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 8/15/16, 10:08 AM, "Jeremiah D Jordan" <jeremiah.jordan@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  I like keeping things in JIRA because then everything is in one
>>> place, and it is easy to refer someone to it in the future.
>>>>  But I agree that JIRA tickets with a bunch of design discussion
>>> and POC’s and such in them can get pretty long and convoluted.
>>>> 
>>>>  I don’t really like the idea of moving all of that discussion to
>>> email which makes it has harder to point someone to it.  Maybe a better
>>> idea would be to have a “design/POC” JIRA and an “implementation” JIRA.
>>> That way we could still keep things in JIRA, but the final decision would
>>> be kept “clean”.
>>>> 
>>>>  Though it would be nice if people would send an email to the dev
>>> list when proposing “design” JIRA’s, as not everyone has time to follow
>>> every JIRA ever made to see that a new design JIRA was created that they
>>> might be interested in participating on.
>>>> 
>>>>  My 2c.
>>>> 
>>>>  -Jeremiah
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Jonathan Ellis <jbellis@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A long time ago, I was a proponent of keeping most development
>>> discussions
>>>>> on Jira, where tickets can be self contained and the threadless
>>> nature
>>>>> helps keep discussions from getting sidetracked.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But Cassandra was a lot smaller then, and as we've grown it has
>>> become
>>>>> necessary to separate out the signal (discussions of new features
>>> and major
>>>>> changes) from the noise of routine bug reports.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I propose that we take advantage of the dev list to perform that
>>>>> separation.  Major new features and architectural improvements
>>> should be
>>>>> discussed first here, then when consensus on design is achieved,
>>> moved to
>>>>> Jira for implementation and review.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think this will also help with the problem when the initial idea
>>> proves
>>>>> to be unworkable and gets revised substantially later after much
>>>>> discussion.  It can be difficult to figure out what the conclusion
>>> was, as
>>>>> review comments start to pile up afterwards.  Having that
>>> discussion on the
>>>>> list, and summarizing on Jira, would mitigate this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jonathan Ellis
>>>>> Project Chair, Apache Cassandra
>>>>> co-founder, http://www.datastax.com
>>>>> @spyced
> 


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