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From Hadrian Zbarcea <hzbar...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [CAMEL-3.0] Start moving forward
Date Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:47:11 GMT
Christian,

Thanks for taking the initiative and restarting the process for Camel 
3.0. The good news imho is that we're under no pressure and we can take 
the time to get it right.

I like your proposal of effectively splitting the camel-3.0-roadmap page 
into multiple pages. If I understand correctly you are suggesting the 
following:
- proposals should go on the [ideas] wiki and the discussions on the 
mailing lists would refer to the wiki
- the [ideas] page should only contain items currently under discussion
- accepted ideas should move to one of the [roadmap] pages
- keep separate [roadmap] pages for changes to be implemented in 
[2.x-roadmap], [3.0-roadmap] and [3.x-roadmap]

The goal is to move faster and to avoid votes except in highly 
contentious situations which we hope to avoid. I think that would work. 
I also think that have an open concall on irc (plus maybe other channel) 
at a scheduled time would be great, although hard to accommodate the 
time zones.

I would add the following:
1. The ideas on the [ideas] page should be short, containing just an 
abstract. If it takes more than that the details should go in a separate 
[discuss] thread or another page.
2. Keep [discuss] threads focused on one topic only
3. Use endorsements (e.g. username or initials like [hadrian]) to show 
support for an idea (or [-1 hadrian] for a negative endorsement)
4. Once an idea has enough endorsements (3-5, dunno, need to agree on 
something) and no negative endorsement for at least say 72 hours or 
more, we move it to a [roadmap] page.
5. Have only a limited number of 'editors' to move [ideas] to [roadmap]
6. I am also thinking that each accepted idea on the [roadmap] should 
have a champion (not necessarily to implement/commit the code, but stay 
on top of it)

If no objections within 3 hours I will get to organizing the pages.

In terms of concrete development, Guillaume had a very interesting 
proposal at ACEU in November. We discussed concrete ways of refactoring 
the api and realized that it's very hard to fully explain an idea 
without showing some code and it's even harder to grasp the consequences 
without experimenting a bit with the code. We talked about doing that 
either in a (1) separate, possibly github, repo, (2) on a branch or (3) 
in the sandbox. This would have the advantage of being able to show an 
fast idea without concern for backward compatibility and all. More I 
thought about it, more I liked the approach. Of the three alternatives, 
the one I like the most is (3), I guess.

To anticipate objections (miscommunication will happen no matter how 
hard we'll try) backward compatibility and easy, painless migration are 
major goals for 3.0, I would assume everybody agrees. The ways to get 
there are many though.

Thoughts?
Hadrian


On 01/16/2013 04:12 PM, Christian Müller wrote:
> I find it very difficult to start a such huge and important challenge as
> Camel 3.0 will be, for sure. I think the most difficult part is to get
> consensus about what we do it and how we do it. We already collect some
> useful ideas at [1], but I have the feeling we have to review these ideas.
> First of all, because I don't think we can do all of them in one release (I
> also have a few more - more important from my point of view - ideas,
> collected from users, contributors, committers and PMC members). Second,
> some ideas need more "meat" before someone else than the authors know what
> this means and which impact it has. Third, a few of these ideas are already
> implemented in Camel 2.11 or before, so that we can remove it from this
> page to be more focused.
>
> - Rename "Camel 3.0 - Roadmap" into "Camel 3.0 - Ideas"
>
> - Start a fresh "Camel 3.0 - Roadmap" WIKI page which we will fill with
> content in the next weeks
>   - I propose to subdivide this page into three (child) pages:
>    - What has to be done before we can start working on Camel 3.0 (probably
> during the (short term) Camel 2.12)
>    - What are the changes we do in Camel 3.0
>    - What is postpone to 3.1 or later
>   - Afterwards we put everything together, we will see on which ideas we
> already agree and which ones requires detailed discussions.
>    - For later ones I propose  a weekly (or two times per week) IRC/Skype
> session for discussion (Which days/time fit best for you?)
>    - We should also start a [DISCUSS CAMEL-3.0: <TOPIC>] thread at dev@ for
> the guys they are not able to attend
>    - Afterwards we will send the results to the dev@ mailing list to share
> it (if you are interested in it, join us at dev@camel.apache.org)
>
> I will start with it after 72 h to give everyone the possibility to suggest
> another approach (I will only start writing down some ideas which are not
> on table right now). And of course, every help is welcome. A simple -1 or
> better +1 ;-) is not much, but also helpful and better than no feedback...
> Better, if you join us [2] and ride together with us Camel 3.0.
>
> [1] http://camel.apache.org/camel-30-roadmap.html
> [2] http://camel.apache.org/contributing.html
>
> Best,
> Christian
>
> --
>

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