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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:57:03 +0800
From: Willem jiang <willem.jiang@gmail.com>
To: dev@camel.apache.org
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Subject: Re: [CAMEL-3.0] Start moving forward
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I'm OK for the discussion in the IRC and post the discussion back to dev =
list so every one have a chance to express his opinion.
And we made decision in the mailing list.


-- =20
Willem Jiang

Red Hat, Inc.
=46useSource is now part of Red Hat
Web: http://www.fusesource.com =7C http://www.redhat.com
Blog: http://willemjiang.blogspot.com (http://willemjiang.blogspot.com/) =
(English)
          http://jnn.iteye.com (http://jnn.javaeye.com/) (Chinese)
Twitter: willemjiang =20
Weibo: =E5=A7=9C=E5=AE=81willem


On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Hadrian Zbarcea wrote:

> Willem, yeah it's tough with your time zone, but you can find many of u=
s =20
> on irc at various time. And btw, your statement that it's =22not an Apa=
che =20
> Way=22 is not quite accurate. The channel is logged and the relevant =20
> content of the discuss (and/or link) will be posted on dev=40 anyway. T=
he =20
> Apache Way is to have an open decision making process. And from what I =
=20
> understand what Christian proposed is exactly that. More precisely, =20
> those interested/available can have discussions on irc (or other =20
> channels, including private), decisions are still be made on the dev=40=
 =20
> list and results posted on the wiki.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Hadrian
> =20
> On 01/21/2013 08:17 PM, Willem jiang wrote:
> > Hi Christian
> > =20
> > Just one comments for the meeting in IRC.
> > It is not an Apache Way to make decision through the IRC.
> > As you know the time you chose is the middle night (3 AM) in my timez=
one.
> > =20
> > Maybe we can drop a discussion lines in the wiki page, so every one w=
ho wants to join the discussion can have the same page to look in. It cou=
ld be helpful to past the IRC talk into the wiki page at the same time.
> > =20
> > =20
> > --
> > Willem Jiang
> > =20
> > Red Hat, Inc.
> > =46useSource is now part of Red Hat
> > Web: http://www.fusesource.com =7C http://www.redhat.com
> > Blog: http://willemjiang.blogspot.com (http://willemjiang.blogspot.co=
m/) (English)
> > http://jnn.iteye.com (http://jnn.javaeye.com/) (Chinese)
> > Twitter: willemjiang
> > Weibo: =E5=A7=9C=E5=AE=81willem
> > =20
> > =20
> > =20
> > =20
> > =20
> > On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Christian M=C3=BCller wrote:=

> > =20
> > > Hi Hadrian=21
> > > =20
> > > Please find my comments inline.
> > > =20
> > > Best,
> > > Christian
> > > =20
> > > On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Hadrian Zbarcea <hzbarcea=40gmail.=
com (mailto:hzbarcea=40gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > =20
> > > > Christian,
> > > > =20
> > > > Thanks for taking the initiative and restarting the process for C=
amel 3.0.
> > > > The good news imho is that we're under no pressure and we can tak=
e the time
> > > > to get it right.
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > Right.
> > > =20
> > > > =20
> > > > I like your proposal of effectively splitting the camel-3.0-roadm=
ap page
> > > > into multiple pages. If I understand correctly you are suggesting=
 the
> > > > following:
> > > > - proposals should go on the =5Bideas=5D wiki and the discussions=
 on the
> > > > mailing lists would refer to the wiki
> > > > - the =5Bideas=5D page should only contain items currently under =
discussion
> > > > - accepted ideas should move to one of the =5Broadmap=5D pages
> > > > - keep separate =5Broadmap=5D pages for changes to be implemented=
 in
> > > > =5B2.x-roadmap=5D, =5B3.0-roadmap=5D and =5B3.x-roadmap=5D
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > Absolute correct.
> > > =20
> > > > =20
> > > > The goal is to move faster and to avoid votes except in highly co=
ntentious
> > > > situations which we hope to avoid. I think that would work. I als=
o think
> > > > that have an open concall on irc (plus maybe other channel) at a =
scheduled
> > > > time would be great, although hard to accommodate the time zones.=

> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > Right. I propose every Tuesday 7:00 - 8:00 PM Central European Time=
, but
> > > I'm open for others if someone has issues with this (starting tomor=
row). I
> > > propose we use our normal IRC chat room at irc://irc.codehaus.org/c=
amel (http://irc.codehaus.org/camel) and
> > > see how it works. Using IRC has the advantage of easy publishing th=
e chat
> > > at dev=40 after.
> > > =20
> > > > =20
> > > > I would add the following:
> > > > 1. The ideas on the =5Bideas=5D page should be short, containing =
just an
> > > > abstract. If it takes more than that the details should go in a s=
eparate
> > > > =5Bdiscuss=5D thread or another page.
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > Do you think we should go ahead and endorse on the ideas page=3F Ot=
herwise I
> > > will start some =5BDISCUSS=5D threads for the ideas I will promote.=

> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > > 2. Keep =5Bdiscuss=5D threads focused on one topic only
> > > > 3. Use endorsements (e.g. username or initials like =5Bhadrian=5D=
) to show
> > > > support for an idea (or =5B-1 hadrian=5D for a negative endorseme=
nt)
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > Good idea. I updated the new Roadmap page.
> > > =20
> > > > 4. Once an idea has enough endorsements (3-5, dunno, need to agre=
e on
> > > > something) and no negative endorsement for at least say 72 hours =
or more,
> > > > we move it to a =5Broadmap=5D page.
> > > > 5. Have only a limited number of 'editors' to move =5Bideas=5D to=
 =5Broadmap=5D
> > > > 6. I am also thinking that each accepted idea on the =5Broadmap=5D=
 should have
> > > > a champion (not necessarily to implement/commit the code, but sta=
y on top
> > > > of it)
> > > > =20
> > > > If no objections within 3 hours I will get to organizing the page=
s.
> > > Thanks for the initial work.
> > > =20
> > > > =20
> > > > In terms of concrete development, Guillaume had a very interestin=
g
> > > > proposal at ACEU in November. We discussed concrete ways of refac=
toring the
> > > > api and realized that it's very hard to fully explain an idea wit=
hout
> > > > showing some code and it's even harder to grasp the consequences =
without
> > > > experimenting a bit with the code. We talked about doing that eit=
her in a
> > > > (1) separate, possibly github, repo, (2) on a branch or (3) in th=
e sandbox.
> > > > This would have the advantage of being able to show an fast idea =
without
> > > > concern for backward compatibility and all. More I thought about =
it, more I
> > > > liked the approach. Of the three alternatives, the one I like the=
 most is
> > > > (3), I guess.
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > If we can have multiple sandboxes for different ideas, +1.
> > > =20
> > > To anticipate objections (miscommunication will happen no matter ho=
w hard
> > > > we'll try) backward compatibility and easy, painless migration ar=
e major
> > > > goals for 3.0, I would assume everybody agrees. The ways to get t=
here are
> > > > many though.
> > > > =20
> > > > Thoughts=3F
> > > > Hadrian
> > > > =20
> > > > =20
> > > > =20
> > > > On 01/16/2013 04:12 PM, Christian M=C3=BCller wrote:
> > > > =20
> > > > > I find it very difficult to start a such huge and important cha=
llenge as
> > > > > Camel 3.0 will be, for sure. I think the most difficult part is=
 to get
> > > > > consensus about what we do it and how we do it. We already coll=
ect some
> > > > > useful ideas at =5B1=5D, but I have the feeling we have to revi=
ew these ideas.
> > > > > =46irst of all, because I don't think we can do all of them in =
one release
> > > > > (I
> > > > > also have a few more - more important from my point of view - i=
deas,
> > > > > collected from users, contributors, committers and PMC members)=
. Second,
> > > > > some ideas need more =22meat=22 before someone else than the au=
thors know what
> > > > > this means and which impact it has. Third, a few of these ideas=
 are
> > > > > already
> > > > > implemented in Camel 2.11 or before, so that we can remove it f=
rom this
> > > > > page to be more focused.
> > > > > =20
> > > > > - Rename =22Camel 3.0 - Roadmap=22 into =22Camel 3.0 - Ideas=22=

> > > > > =20
> > > > > - Start a fresh =22Camel 3.0 - Roadmap=22 WIKI page which we wi=
ll fill with
> > > > > content in the next weeks
> > > > > - I propose to subdivide this page into three (child) pages:
> > > > > - What has to be done before we can start working on Camel 3.0
> > > > > (probably
> > > > > during the (short term) Camel 2.12)
> > > > > - What are the changes we do in Camel 3.0
> > > > > - What is postpone to 3.1 or later
> > > > > - Afterwards we put everything together, we will see on which i=
deas we
> > > > > already agree and which ones requires detailed discussions.
> > > > > - =46or later ones I propose a weekly (or two times per week) I=
RC/Skype
> > > > > session for discussion (Which days/time fit best for you=3F)
> > > > > - We should also start a =5BDISCUSS CAMEL-3.0: <TOPIC>=5D threa=
d at dev=40for
> > > > > the guys they are not able to attend
> > > > > - Afterwards we will send the results to the dev=40 mailing lis=
t to
> > > > > share
> > > > > it (if you are interested in it, join us at dev=40camel.apache.=
org (mailto:dev=40camel.apache.org))
> > > > > =20
> > > > > I will start with it after 72 h to give everyone the possibilit=
y to
> > > > > suggest
> > > > > another approach (I will only start writing down some ideas whi=
ch are not
> > > > > on table right now). And of course, every help is welcome. A si=
mple -1 or
> > > > > better +1 ;-) is not much, but also helpful and better than no =
feedback...
> > > > > Better, if you join us =5B2=5D and ride together with us Camel =
3.0.
> > > > > =20
> > > > > =5B1=5D http://camel.apache.org/camel-**30-roadmap.html<http://=
camel.apache.org/camel-30-roadmap.html>
> > > > > =5B2=5D http://camel.apache.org/**contributing.html<http://came=
l.apache.org/contributing.html>
> > > > > =20
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Christian
> > > > > =20
> > > > > --
> > > =20
> > > =20
> > > -- =20