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From Claus Ibsen <>
Subject Re: Editing and removing pages on Apache Camel website without discussing first
Date Wed, 04 May 2011 14:33:40 GMT
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Hadrian Zbarcea <> wrote:
> Mule is also an open source project and that had more of a relevance when Camel started
and was a Mule competitor. That page can go away too.

I think thats a mistake.

As a person who goes to conferences and give talks about Camel. I hear
always how does Camel compare to X. Where X is Mule / Spring
Integration etc. And they also ask how does Camel position itself
against IBM or Oracle SOA platforms etc. Being able to have a FAQ
entry for that makes sense. And at least maybe provide some links to
3rd party discussions / articles etc / stackoverflow QA etc would give
the end user some value.

An alternative is the end user end up reading some FUD pages that
talks about Camel and X. By having a FAQ we can help the user links
that are not FUD.

> As James brilliantly stated: let's think of the Camel user's needs and address them.
For needs that go beyond a developer's need to understand and use Camel, such as getting support
or extra tools, the Camel community can add subtle hints (on the Support page as mentioned),
just because we're nice guys, but going beyond that is wrong. That's not our mission/role.
It may be your role as individuals/employees. Blog about it!
> Hadrian
> On May 4, 2011, at 4:38 AM, Claus Ibsen wrote:
>> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Rob Davies <> wrote:
>>> I've corresponded with Hadrian about this off list.
>>> Whilst I understand the sentiment, this policy certainly wasn't clear to me or
other PMC members. Whilst  there are occasional links to external information, mainly at
FuseSource, these are historical and done in the context of providing information to new users
and developers whilst we growing the Camel community, to be one of the most successful and
widely used projects at Apache today. This isn't unique to Apache Camel, its a methodology
 we've successfully followed whilst initiating and growing ActiveMQ, ServiceMix, Karaf and
CXF - to get as much information into users hands as early as possible, from whatever source
that maybe.
>>> Given where Camel is today, its absolutely right to have a level playing ground
- but what I would like to see is that this policy is clearly understood by everyone - and
not handled in off list conversations.
>>> I would like to propose that from now on all links to 3rd party distributions
or usages of Apache Camel in a 3rd party product are put into (but not limited to) the following
4 categories:
>>> 1. support
>>> 2. Articles
>>> 3. Tutorials
>>> 4. Tools
>>> And there is a grace period  (till end of June 2011) to move links to external
information to one of these areas by the authors, else it they will be deleted.
>> What about FAQ?
>> Thinking about it, it would make sense to be able to refer to 3rd
>> party products or companies from a FAQ.
>> For example we already do this by the - How does Camel compare to
>> Mule. Where Mule is a product from MuleSoft.
>>> Here's my +1
>>> On 3 May 2011, at 16:52, Hadrian Zbarcea wrote:
>>>> No, there are things that are not up to the community to decide. I drew attention
when some changes were made that that was a mistake and my impression was that the point was
well taken. I also mentioned that if changes won't be removed by their authors I will. That
was months ago. If anything, I can be blamed for not making these changes earlier.
>>>> The Apache Camel project has a designated place to inform the users community
of commercial offerings [1]. And there are also the articles [2] and tutorials [3] pages that
can be used (within reason). Everything else a commercial organization has to say about offerings
related to the Apache projects can be done on their site.
>>>> I hope this clarifies it,
>>>> Hadrian
>>>> [1]
>>>> [2]
>>>> [3]
>>>> On May 3, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Claus Ibsen wrote:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> This post is addressed to Hadrian who has been deleting and editing
>>>>> web pages from Apache Camel (today),
>>>>> which seems to be related to the fact those pages had information about
>>>>> I would like to call out that such actions should have been discussed
>>>>> in the public at first and agreed upon by the community.
>>>>> Most of the information has been there for a long time and its related
>>>>> and relevant for Apache Camel.
>>>>> And of use for people who look into what Camel is.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Claus Ibsen
>>>>> -----------------
>>>>> FuseSource
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> Web:
>>>>> CamelOne 2011:
>>>>> Twitter: davsclaus
>>>>> Blog:
>>>>> Author of Camel in Action:
>> --
>> Claus Ibsen
>> -----------------
>> FuseSource
>> Email:
>> Web:
>> CamelOne 2011:
>> Twitter: davsclaus
>> Blog:
>> Author of Camel in Action:

Claus Ibsen
CamelOne 2011:
Twitter: davsclaus
Author of Camel in Action:

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