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Subject: RE: Best Practices?
Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:58:23 -0400
Message-ID: <25D454F3DBD1AF46A718F761CB11ABE11B8F55@nycmrmt1.corp.pbwan.net>
Thread-Topic: Best Practices?
Thread-Index: AcQ4STO6Ovm9mdIHSWuCc5qCFEfeUgAAQyPg
From: "Miller, Janet" <MillerJa@pbworld.com>
To: <axis-user@ws.apache.org>

But many people already have a service in use internally that they would =
like to expose to the outside world.
They have already decided what that service was supposed to do, the =
arguments, etc before coding it during their initial development =
process.

Jan

-----Original Message-----
From: Pridemore, Russell (MAN-Corporate) =
[mailto:Russell.Pridemore@cox.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 1:39 PM
To: 'axis-user@ws.apache.org'
Subject: RE: Best Practices?


I'm fairly new to web-services (and axis), but am a seasoned programmer. =
Comparing web-services to other technologies, CORBA for instance, you =
always started with the interface definition, never the code.  I =
personally don't find WSDL to be all that difficult to work with, even =
by hand, and there are tools to help create it, as Anne has pointed out.

I guess my point is that how are you going to begin coding something =
before deciding what it is supposed to do, what arguments it will =
require, etc.? Personal tastes aside, the interface seems like the =
obvious place to start. If WSDL is a burden to work with, that's not a =
criticism of Axis.

My $.02,
Russ

-----Original Message-----
From: Yakulis, Ross (Ross) [mailto:yakulis@avaya.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 1:30 PM
To: axis-user@ws.apache.org; dims@apache.org
Subject: RE: Best Practices?


Exactly, that is why Jonathan Anderson is on the wrong track.   He =
describes
what he currently has to do.   The real question is in the long run what =
is
the right way to do things and push for that and get Axis to migrate in =
that
direction.   I personally still believe that writing wsdl files is for =
the
birds and should be avoided.   Ultimately, only tools should be =
generating
wsdl files, scans for rare cases.  If web services are not easy to =
create and deploy they are generally not much better that their =
predecessors.

Ross =20

-----Original Message-----
From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:davanum@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:14 AM
To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
Subject: Re: Best Practices?


Let's twist this discussion on its head....
- Is there a list of bugs hiding in there somewhere? (bug reports)
- What would you do if you were to write/re-write parts of axis? =
(enhancements requests)

If we can't create new bug reports / enchancements to tell axis =
developers how axis should behave in the future (1.2 Final) then all =
discussion is just water under the bridge.

thanks,
-- dims

On Wed, 12 May 2004 12:12:44 -0500, Joe Plautz <joep@customcall.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for the advice! This is exactly what I've been looking for.
>=20
> It almost seems that people end up using Axis inspite of itself. But,=20
> it's just too dang easy to get something up and running. I imagine JWS =

> files
have
> lead many people astray with their simplicity. If all services could=20
> work like them, plus using user defined objects/type with little to no =

> configuration. The world would be a fabulous place.
>=20
> I too have been not tying my service layer to my DAO layer. My reasons =

> are more personal preferrance then need. But, I can take my DAO and=20
> put it behind something else with little changing except creating a=20
> new broker.
>=20
> -Joe
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anderson Jonathan" <anderson_jonathan@bah.com>
> To: <axis-user@ws.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:03 AM
> Subject: RE: Best Practices?
>=20
> > I would venture to say that 80% of the complications and=20
> > frustrations implementing interoperable (WS-I compliant Doc/Literal) =

> > SOAP web
services
> on
> > Java platforms stem from the XML datatype to Java datatype binding
> problem.
> >
> > If you take the time to learn W3C XML Schema, you'll see the=20
> > problem:
it's
> > not an OO type system.  Therefore modeling your data types in Java=20
> > and expecting some automagic Java2WSDL utility to do all of the hard =

> > work to generate your XML schema is naive, and it is unfortunate=20
> > that so many OO developers think this way.
> >
> > I've encountered several approaches for dealing with this problem=20
> > with Axis - virtually all of them involve hand crafting your WSDL=20
> > and XSD
(with
> a
> > WSDL/XSD IDE, of course) and generating a Java type system using=20
> > ***a particular Java XML binding engine***.  Using Axis's internal=20
> > XML
binding
> > engine is one of several options available to you.
> >
> > For more info on the XML binding problem in Java, I defer to Dennis
> Sosnoski
> > (www.sosnoski.com), a long-time XML deep thinker.  He first turned=20
> > me
onto
> > the XML data binding "problem" with his excellent articles (4 parts) =

> > on
> the
> > issues over at IBM developerWorks.
> >
> > http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-databdopt/index.html
> >
> > If you're trying to use Axis's internal XML binding engine, here's=20
> > some
> > advice:
> >
> > =
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=3Daxis-user&m=3D107945370506044&w=3D2
> >
> > We've since moved away from this approach, and are currently using
Axis's
> > Message Style services to pass the SOAP Request Body DOM straight to
> Castor,
> > which unmarshalls the XML into a Castor generated type system.  We
further
> > introduced a broker pattern to abstract the SOAP messaging layer=20
> > from
our
> > business layer, which currently is not tied to any XSD generated=20
> > types.
> >
> > Axis Message Style Service Implementation ->
> > Service Broker Layer (unmarshalls SOAP Request DOM via Castor,=20
> > extracts
> the
> > necessary information from Castor types - literally traversing the
graph's
> > getters - to invoke Business Manager Layer, and catches Business
> Exceptions
> > and maps them to proper SOAP Faults using AxisFault)-> Business=20
> > Manager Layer (not tied to XSD types, but rather pure Java
> business
> > domain types, invokes DAO layer as needed) ->
> > DAO Layer (a Spring/Hibernate layer to manage persistence for=20
> > business domain types)
> >
> > The problem here is definitely managing and translating between the=20
> > two
> type
> > systems: Castor generated classes from XSD and non-generated=20
> > Business
> Domain
> > classes.
> >
> > The alternative, however, is to just try to use the XSD generated=20
> > type system and persist that directly.  This is too big of a leap=20
> > for us
right
> > now, as our business layer doesn't "think" in pure XSD type terms.
You'll
> > probably encounter this a lot given how much legacy functionality=20
> > people
> are
> > trying to SOAP service enable.
> >
> > Bottom line: implementing a WS-I compliant SOAP service in Java is=20
> > not a trivial thing.  There are two types of people building Web=20
> > Services in
> Java:
> > those who are extremely frustrated with the completely stupid state=20
> > of
the
> > Java based Web Services world right now and yet still trying very=20
> > hard
to
> do
> > it right, and those who haven't grasped that world is in a=20
> > completely
> stupid
> > state right now.
> >
> > -Jon
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe Plautz [mailto:joep@customcall.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:02 AM
> > To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Best Practices?
> >
> >
> > My first attemps have started with a WSDL/Schema then I generate
> everything.
> > I was able to find an example at W3.org and I just manipulate it to=20
> > the
> way
> > I need it. I thought this to be the best way at the time because of=20
> > interoperability.
> >
> > From what I've been finding thus far there are no "Standard"=20
> > practices,
> just
> > "Accepted" practices. Starting with a class then using Java2WSDL and
then
> > WSDL2Java seems to be the most common. But, it almost seems that=20
> > this
was
> > not the intention of the designers of Axis. Why use two steps when=20
> > you
can
> > use one? Creating a WSDL from scratch seems like the intended way,=20
> > but
is
> > not the most accepted way by the developers/users of Axis. Why write
what
> > you can generate?
> >
> > I know this isn't difficult earth shattering stuff, I'm just looking =

> > for
> the
> > best way of doing this. So, when I start working with other people=20
> > to
> create
> > services, we're doing it the "right" way.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dorner Thomas" <thomas.dorner@edmb.debis.com>
> > To: <axis-user@ws.apache.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:01 AM
> > Subject: AW: Best Practices?
> >
> >
> > You are right - if you will do a interoperable webservice that deal=20
> > with other clients (.Net ...) its better to go from the wsdl.
> >
> > But when i use String, int and so on and i generate a wsdl by=20
> > java2wsdl, I hope the wsdl i get, depends on the standard spec. for=20
> > wsdl!????
> >
> > So there should no problem to use the wsdl by other languages!???
> >
> > Dont know how it looks with complex datatypes!????
> >
> > Do you all write your own wsdl by hand????
> >
> > Tomi
> >
> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: David Cunningham [mailto:david.cunningham@dcdominion.com]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2004 13:14
> > An: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> > Betreff: RE: Best Practices?
> >
> >
> > I disagree, the right way is to start with your WSDL and schema=20
> > files.
If
> > you want any hope of being WS-I compliant or using doc/literal this=20
> > is
> your
> > best bet. As soon as you start with an interface, you start dealing=20
> > Java types that do not correlate to schema types very well. For=20
> > example, if
you
> > use: public List getStuff() or public String[] getStuff(), you will
either
> > generate a WSDL file that can't be parsed properly by other=20
> > consumers
> (.NET,
> > Glue, etc) or be bound to Java collection types that have no chance=20
> > of
> being
> > parsed properly by .Net (without a lot of hacking around).
> >
> > My recommendation, again personal preference, is always give thought =

> > to
> the
> > XML that is going across the wire and what you are trying to
send/receive
> > and in what structure. This is especially important when dealing=20
> > with doc/literal since you are sending a single document over the=20
> > wire.
> >
> > - david
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dorner Thomas [mailto:thomas.dorner@edmb.debis.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:03 AM
> > To: 'axis-user@ws.apache.org'
> > Subject: AW: Best Practices?
> >
> > The right way is to write a interface which includes all the Methods
your
> > webservice should offer.
> >
> > Then you use java2wsdl to generate your wsdl. You have to correct=20
> > your parameternames in your auto generated wsdl, cause the the=20
> > params looks
> like
> > in0, in1, in2... .
> >
> > Then you use wsdl2java to generate your stub, locator, skeleton,=20
> > impl
and
> > maybe a testclient.
> >
> > Now you can implement and deploy your Service by unsing the=20
> > addtional generated .wsdd files.
> >
> > Hope this helps you
> >
> > Tomi
> >
> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Joe Plautz [mailto:joep@customcall.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Mai 2004 18:48
> > An: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> > Betreff: Best Practices?
> >
> >
> > I'm a newbie looking for guidance in creating WebServices with Axis.
I've
> > gone through the documentation backwards and forwards and have come=20
> > up
> with
> > me own ways of doing things. I start with a WSDL that I create and=20
> > use WSDL2Java to generate the code and go from there. What I'm=20
> > looking for
is
> a
> > best practices because I don't feel confident in the way I am going
about
> > it.
> >
> > Do most people start from a WSDL? Do people generate a WSDL from an=20
> > interface and go from there? Do people just create a class and a=20
> > WSDD
> file?
> > Or, do people use JWS files that accept a string and the string=20
> > contains
> xml
> > formated text?
> >
> > If there are any sites that cover this information, please forward=20
> > them
on
> > to me.
> >
> > Any help will be appreciated!!!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Joe Plautz
> > joep@customcall.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>=20
>