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From Davanum Srinivas <dava...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Project from hell?
Date Sat, 15 May 2004 02:35:27 GMT
Am not sure if you are kidding or serious....Anyways, here's the
complete list of IRC channels that various apache projects use -
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?IrcChannels

-- dims

On Fri, 14 May 2004 16:40:22 -0400, Galbreath, Mark A
<galbreathma@state.gov> wrote:
> 
> cool...I belong to a close-knit group of hackers at http://www.darkmyst.org
> on #funkycodemonkey
> 
> but I will post your URL on there....
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:davanum@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 4:24 PM
> To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Project from hell?
> 
> Let's try this...if you show up on the IRC channel on monday, i'll
> walk u through it. picky any freenode server
> (http://www.freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml) channel is #apache-axis.
> There are other that hang out there as well who you can ask questions.
> 
> -- dims
> 
> On Fri, 14 May 2004 16:17:31 -0400, Galbreath, Mark A
> <galbreathma@state.gov> wrote:
> >
> > well....sheeeit!  I am trying to find the EASIEST solution - screw writing
> > WSDLs and any other XML files!
> >
> > I tried the Sun tutorial, but it would a fanatic 12 weeks to go through
> that
> > one.
> >
> > I tried the Axis tutorial and it made no REAL WORLD sense at all.
> >
> > I tried the Oracle JDeveloper and JBuilder Webservices modules and they
> > suck.
> >
> > I DO NOT WANT TO WRITE XML - THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!
> >
> > What's the solution?  I have pressure all over me to create Web services
> for
> > every f*cking application in the ..... department.  What gives?  It seems
> to
> > me that Web services has been way totally overhyped and it delivers
> nothing
> > of value.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff [mailto:jeff@cogentlogic.com]
> > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 1:48 PM
> > To: axis-user@ws.apache.org; dims@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Project from hell?
> >
> > #1:
> >
> > You must be joking! There are more than 2000 DIFFERENT elements and
> complex
> > types. The problems tend to lie within the generated code and are not
> > obvious until you try to use that code...then you find that it doesn't
> work.
> > I wasted way too much time trying make changes to the Axis-generated code
> > before giving up. I concluded that Axis was an order of magnitude away
> from
> > where I needed it to be in terms of complex payloads (though that
> perception
> > might have been biased by the enormity of the SCS XML Schema). So I use
> Axis
> > for connectivity (it's great at this, of course) and insert XML documents
> > (that I generate) as document-literal content.
> >
> > Well, okay, I'll check it out over the weekend and file a bug report :-)
> >
> > #2:
> >
> > No. I understand that nowadays some folks use Castor in cases like this.
> > Three years ago my customers needed something like a JAXB that supports
> the
> > whole of XML Schema and connected to databases. There wasn't anything then
> > so I wrote XchainJ. This product is now in version 2.3 and runs as a fully
> > integrated Eclipse Plugin. This isn't a commercial plug though because,
> > oddly enough, I find life is easier if I don't sell it! XchainJ is great
> for
> > really complex XML but, unfortunately, it has been my experience that
> people
> > who have a requirement for this are not the sort of people who have the
> > technical expertise to use it! They tend to be scientists not Java
> > programmers. I could ramble on at length about user perceptions, etc. but
> I
> > won't. When I work face-to-face with customers they really appreciate the
> > product and either use it themselves or pay me to use it. Typically, I can
> > turn around a project that would take a week using Castor, JAXB, etc. in
> two
> > or three hours with XchainJ (it does XML/Java/DBMS interoperability). The
> > whole process of dealing with potential customers in other countries and
> > over the Internet is more trouble than it's worth.
> >
> > Interestingly, I presented XchainJ to the technical director of a company
> > that sells Java software (on the basis that they could do the marketing,
> > etc.). The guy thought the product was great but found he was unable to
> > explain to his marketing folk what it did in terms that they could
> > understand! If they are not experts, people seem to get fogged beyond a
> > certain level of complexity.
> >
> > It's a crazy situation: we have XML Schema that scientists are running
> with
> > and producing very complex structures BUT they don't have the expertise to
> > implement solutions. Then there's the computer industry that, while
> > populated with developers who can work on complex projects and after great
> > effort can produce solutions, has mainstream tool vendors that are
> > completely out of touch with anything other than trivial XML! Some
> > commercial products have been written by programmers who were under the
> > impression that there will only ever be one XML Schema document that
> targets
> > a given namespace. They generate error like "I've encountered this
> namespace
> > before, what are you giving it to me again for!". Still other won't go
> > beyond a maximum of just one XML Schema document referenced from WSDL. GML
> > comprises 27 XML Schema documents that target the GML namespace (plus
> others
> > for xlink, etc.) (and GML is a basis schema that users are _intended_ to
> > incorporate as a component of other schemas).
> >
> > An NGO approached me a year ago with a project that they had only a month
> to
> > complete. It uses the CSDGM DTD (a.k.a. FGDC). They went to a big software
> > development company before they approached me and were told (i) something
> > that complex couldn't be done and (ii) if it could be done there's no way
> it
> > could be done within a month. Using XchainJ 1.1, I completed the entire
> > project in one day. Had I had XchainJ 2.3 then, it would have taken half a
> > day.
> >
> > In a similar vein, my customers currently need XML Schema support in
> > rich-clients. The sort of support that doesn't exist today. They are going
> > to get it in XchainJ 3.x. As I said earlier, there's a disconnect between
> > the complexity supported by the computer software industry and the
> > complexity required by scientists. While the Eclipse folks are working on
> > SWT-designer support, I'm working on 'XML Schema / SWT rich-client with
> > connections to controlled content web services plus authentication,
> > authorization, XML document management, etc.' support in a generic tool.
> An
> > order of magnitude disparity.
> >
> > Now, if only I was a marketeer instead of  a programmer... :-)
> >
> > Warmest regards,
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > Cogent Logic Corporation
> > Toronto, Canada
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Davanum Srinivas" <davanum@gmail.com>
> > To: <axis-user@ws.apache.org>
> > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 12:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Project from hell?
> >
> > > A few questions:
> > >
> > > #1: Can you please open a bug report with a pointer to the schema that
> > fails?
> > > #2: Did you try using any JAXB implementation against the schema?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > dims
> > >
> > > On Fri, 14 May 2004 12:03:14 -0400, Jeff <jeff@cogentlogic.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi!
> > > >
> > > > On a similar note, there's a disconnect between the capabilities of
> > tools
> > > > created by the software industry and the requirements of the
> scientific
> > > > community.
> > > >
> > > > I have just completed a particular type of Open GIS Consortium (OGC)
> web
> > > > service called a Sensor Collection Service. The XML Schema referenced
> > from
> > > > the WSDL file comprises 54 XML Schema documents spanning 15
> namespaces.
> > Not
> > > > only did the Axis bean code baulk at this but, when I had completed
> the
> > > > project, clients found that the .NET tools couldn't handle anything
> like
> > the
> > > > complexity of the SCS XML Schema. Consequently, I supplied 'client
> > > > software'.
> > > >
> > > > The originators of SOAP are conning the software world and no one
> seems
> > to
> > > > mind!
> > > >
> > > > If it's legitimate to distribute platform-independent data (XML) it
> must
> > be
> > > > legitimate to distribute the program logic that uses that data. If
> only
> > we
> > > > had a platform-independent way to deliver program logic!
> > > >
> > > > Forcing web service clients, as a matter of fiat, to write their own
> > program
> > > > logic is the antithesis of OOP: interfaces, inheritance, polymorphism
> > all
> > > > exits to promote reuse. Reuse is the Holy Grail of software
> development.
> > > >
> > > > It could be argued that each client has their own needs and so it's
> not
> > > > possible to write generic client-side code. Such an argument is false.
> > The
> > > > fact that XML Schemas are used to formalise the data transmitted
> within
> > SOAP
> > > > envelopes means that each web service is necessarily
> > application-specific
> > > > and, as such, is tractable to low-level client code. Such code exposes
> > data
> > > > (in the form of XML, if appropriate) that can then be used in whatever
> > way
> > > > the ultimate consumer-code requires.
> > > >
> > > > I recently wrote a web service for the Government of Canada that
> > provided
> > > > document-literal content in the form of Web Ontology Language (OWL).
> > > > Everyone was pleased with the outcome and loved the OWL implementation
> > BUT
> > > > the first thing they did was to nominate someone to write a generic
> > client
> > > > that dealt with the XML and provided the desired content through a
> Java
> > > > component that everyone could use/reuse. Hey, that's an idea...I
> wonder
> > if
> > > > we could supply Java client-side code with our web services. That way,
> > the
> > > > .NET folks and all other non-Java folks could continue to do what they
> > do
> > > > and the sane software developers can get back to the preferred
> paradigm
> > of
> > > > using portable code.
> > > >
> > > > XML and Java go together. Sun and all other interested parties seem to
> > be
> > > > blind to the fact that making portable client-side code an integrated
> > web
> > > > service deliverable would make those services far more viable. Not
> > everyone
> > > > wants to get into WSDL, etc. when they could simply use a bean! SOAP
> and
> > web
> > > > services are infrastructure. Folks who use my web services want
> turnkey
> > > > solutions. For them it's about access to scientific data. They want to
> > > > operate at a higher level of abstraction than SOAP!
> > > >
> > > > Warmest regards,
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > > >
> > > > Cogent Logic Corporation
> > > >
> > > > Toronto, Canada
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Galbreath, Mark A" <GalbreathMA@state.gov>
> > > > To: <axis-user@ws.apache.org>
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:22 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: Project from hell?
> > > >
> > > > > EXACTOMUDO!  :-(
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Sherman, Dennis (END-CHI)
> [mailto:dennis.sherman@endinfosys.com]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 9:12 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > Your task sounds to me suspiciously like someone at an executive
> level
> > > > > having heard about web services, and thinking they've found the
> silver
> > > > > bullet to all their problems.
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> 
>

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