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Message-ID: <20030523021909.67172.qmail@web12803.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Davanum Srinivas <dims@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: dims@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: web services in C++
To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
In-Reply-To: <00b301c320b8$86d93900$6501a8c0@GAIA.THEMINDELECTRIC.NET>
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Graham,
Which version of Axis did you guys use? Is it possible to publish the test cases, so that we can
run the tests against the latest cvs code?

Users,
Here's a reminder...Axis needs is an open source project with NO full-time developers (AFAIK). We
need folks to pitch in to improve Axis's performance. If you are willing and able, just submit
patches (http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?AxisProjectPages/SubmitPatches) and get
active on axis-dev@ mailing list.

Thanks,
dims

--- Graham Glass <graham@themindelectric.com> wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>  
> For the record, as far as GLUE goes, our benchmarks also do not support
> Mark's findings.
>  
> http://www.themindelectric.com/glue/index.html?../products.header.html
> <http://www.themindelectric.com/glue/index.html?../products.header.html&
> benchmarks.html&../bottom.html> &benchmarks.html&../bottom.html
>  
> Cheers,
> Graham
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yakulis, Ross (Ross) [mailto:yakulis@avaya.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 6:10 PM
> To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> Subject: RE: web services in C++
>  
> Peter asked my to clarify my comment.  I with draw the comment on price
> and leave it at that and that for what ever reason we have chosen to use
> Axis until it we hit an impassable road block.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yakulis, Ross (Ross) 
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 2:53 PM
> To: 'axis-user@ws.apache.org'
> Subject: RE: web services in C++
> Peter's comments are true based on my performance testing (I am not
> affiliated with any web service vendor), however, that comes at a high
> $$ cost.  We looked at Systinet but opted for Axis as Systinet was too
> pricey.
>  
> Is there an ongoing concerted effort to continually improve Axis
> performance?
>  
> Ross
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Lacey [mailto:placey@wanderingbarque.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 2:45 PM
> To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> Subject: Re: web services in C++
> Full disclosure, I work for Systinet the makers of WASP.
> 
> In reference to Mark Volkmann's assertion that Glue and WASP do much
> worse than Axis when processing large (>20K) messages.  Our own
> benchmarking (unbiased, I assure you) demonstrates that for all message
> types, for all message sizes, and for all numbers of simultaneous
> clients (threads), WASP (I can't speak for Glue) routinely outperforms
> Axis.  In fact, when processing an array of structures - each structure
> holding an int, a double, and the String "Systinet Benchmarks" - Axis
> fell over and died somewhere between 100 & 125 simultaneous connections.
> Before this, though, WASP was 250 times faster than Axis on average.
> WASP was processing roughly 43 of these 100 element arrays per second
> while Axis was procsessing 12.
> 
> Our benchmarks were performed on a big ol' 4-way Solaris 8 box with 32GB
> of RAM and using the 1.4.1_02 JVM with the WebLogic 8.1 servlet engine.
> The Axis tests were run using Doc/Literal and Axis using RPC/Encoded.  I
> can't find the WASP RPC/Encoded numbers, though they are generally
> superior to the Doc/Lit numbers.
> 
> Mark, Michael, I would be happy to share the results of our benchmarks
> with you.  My email address should be attached to this reply, but if not
> I can be reached at lacey-AT-systinet.com.  If you want, I can also
> examine your benchmarking code and environment to help discern what
> might be the reason for the results you're seeing.
> 
> To answer Michael's question.  The numbers above (good or bad) are not
> necessarily reflective of message processing when dealing with
> attachements.  These numbers are a reflection of (among other things)
> the SOAP stack's XML/Java serialization.  Regarding WASP; our Java and
> C++ products support MIME attachements.  In addition the C++ product
> supports DIME attachements today, and the Java product will in June.
> During our tests we wanted to see what (if any) sized attachment would
> cause WASP to fail.  We got up to a 165MB MIME attachment without a
> hiccup.  We have not tried anything larger, but are confident WASP will
> continue to perform.  This is not to say that SOAP with Attachments is
> the right design for you, but to say that should you go this route WASP
> could undoubtedly handle the load.
> 
> I should also note that I in particular and Systinet in general hold the
> open source and Apache communities in the highest regard.  The above
> statements are not meant to disparage the valuable and exciting work
> being done here.  Please view these benchmarking results as neutral, and
> this message as an attempt to set the record straight regarding WASP
> performance.
> 
> Regards,
> Pete
> 
> Volkmann, Mark wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't have experience with that, but it's my understanding from
> reading the posts of others that when you are sending large amounts of
> binary data, attachments are the way to go.  If you try to stuff it in
> the actual SOAP message it will consume more space than putting it in an
> attachment even if you don't compress it.  This has something to do with
> special encoding of the data that must be done when the data is in the
> SOAP message.  Perhaps someone can more clearly explain this.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen, Michael E. [mailto:Michael.Allen@ACNielsen.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 1:39 PM
> To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> Subject: RE: web services in C++
> That's *very* interesting!  I am planning on returning some results as
> compressed attachments that could be 100s of Mb large... does this imply
> that I would do better using SOAP for messaging only and find another
> way to actually deliver the data?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Volkmann, Mark [mailto:Mark.Volkmann@AGEDWARDS.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 1:24 PM
> To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> Subject: RE: web services in C++
> In my testing, message size matters a lot when it comes to performance
> of various web service toolkits.  GLUE and WASP do much better than Axis
> for small messages, but in my testing they do much worse than Axis for
> large messages.  By large I mean over 20k.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anne Thomas Manes [mailto:anne@manes.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:37 AM
> To: axis-user@ws.apache.org
> Subject: Re: web services in C++
> Michael,
>  
> You're right -- Axis can only invoke methods on Java classes, so to use
> Axis, you'll need to create Java wrappers. You'll take a hit in
> performance if you do this.
>  
> There are three SOAP systems for portable C++:
> - gSOAP
> - Systinet WASP
> - Rogue Wave LEIF
>  
> All of them support significantly better performance than Axis (or any
> other Java implementation).
>  
> Anne
>  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Allen, <mailto:Michael.Allen@ACNielsen.com>  Michael E. 
> To: axis-user@ws.apache.org 
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 10:24 AM
> Subject: web services in C++
>  
> Not exactly on the topic, but I think this group must have dealt with
> this issue.  What is the best way to incorporate web services written in
> C++?  I have used gSoap, but I am would like something that integrates
> with Axis.  I believe I am right in assuming that Axis can only directly
> make calls on Java classes (is that right?).  I suppose I could right
> Java wrappers for my C++ classes (are there any tools to automate
> that?), but I'd like to know if there is a cleaner/more-apache like way
> to do things.
>  
> Btw, my need for C++ is motivated both by some performance concerns and
> even more by needing to use legacy systems.
>  
> Thanks,
> Michael
> 
> 
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=====
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/

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