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From Brian Ewins <Brian.Ew...@btinternet.com>
Subject Re: I hate axis because...
Date Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:59:20 GMT
happyaxis.jsp is a big step towards helping with peoples install 
problems, but I'd prefer if it was the index.jsp though. Saying in the 
manual: "You must not proceed until all needed libraries can be found, 
and this validation page is happy" just passes people by.

The classpath(s) and the various xml parsers on them are most often the 
problem; I'm wondering if would help to provide some easy way to 
'fingerprint' your system, so people could easily pass on info about 
what they know to be a working setup, people with problems can more 
easily supply info about their env with their question, and you should 
even be able to 'diff' environments.

Rather than just talk about this, I've attached a JSP which allows you 
to do exactly this. Originally I intended for this to dump out jvm 
versions too, and read in a separate properties file which identifies 
jar versions by their names and sizes, eg 
'jdom.jar(126898)=JDOM-beta-8'. But you can see how it works (just drop 
it into a webapp).

The differences between this and happyaxis are that it doesnt attempt to 
identify problems, it provides info on whats on your classpath that's 
_not_ getting picked up, as well as attempting to identify versions. If 
the axis folk want to use this code in any way, be my guest.

-Baz

Kevin.Bedell@sunlife.com wrote:
> 
> I think there are a couple issues -
> 
> 1. The technology needs to become more accessible to beginners. Beginners
> are going to have challenges building the configuration from pieces.
> Frustration will lead to rejection of the platform for something easier -
> they may choose VB and .NET to build web services. Certainly the folks at
> MS will tell them (and their management) that .NET is easier to learn and
> use.
> 
> 2. If people want to deploy first generation (to them, anyway) web sevices
> using a combined all-in-one package, then good! This makes it easy for them
> to get a prototype in-house and get something up and working as a POC or
> first production application.
> 
> 3. Once they buy into web sevices as an enterprise architecture and begin
> building more and more of them, they'll pick up (or hire) the expertise to
> build things out of pieces.
> 
> Let's don't insist they learn to ride a bike with a high-end model because
> they'll need it when they get in races later - give them a tricycle first
> and let them get moving. They'll know what to do when they outgrow the
> tricycle. Give them some credit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ted Neward <TedN@matmail.ucdavis.edu> on 08/05/2002 08:21:15 PM
> 
> Please respond to axis-user@xml.apache.org
> 
> To:    "'John Brothers'" <johnbr@hotmail.com>, axis-user@xml.apache.org
> cc:    Ted 1<TedN@matmail.ucdavis.edu> (bcc: Kevin
>        Bedell/Systems/USHO/SunLife)
> Subject:    RE: I hate axis because...
> 
> 
> Yes, but when faced with "figuring out what parts of the box are needed to
> deploy my app to production" and "deploy the entire box to production",
> which do you think most developers are going to do, despite the potential
> long-term harm?
> 
> Ted Neward
> Architect, UCDavis Account & Financial Services
> http://www.javageeks.com
> http://www.clrgeeks.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Brothers [mailto:johnbr@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 15:13
> To: axis-user@xml.apache.org
> Cc: TedN@matmail.ucdavis.edu
> Subject: RE: I hate axis because...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if you get a duplicate - I'm having problems getting to the list.
> 
> I don't think that anyone is requiring things to be stuck together - I
> think
> 
> they're proposing the idea of offering a single place to deploy lots of
> systems at one time - so you don't have to download Apache, then Tomcat,
> then Axis, then all the needed jars - it would all be "easily" downloaded
> and configured to run "out of the box".
> 
>    jb
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>From: Ted Neward <TedN@matmail.ucdavis.edu>
>>Reply-To: axis-user@xml.apache.org
>>To: "'axis-user@xml.apache.org'" <axis-user@xml.apache.org>
>>Subject: RE: I hate axis because...
>>Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:49:22 -0700
>>
>>Don't you DARE fall into that trap. Sun cheated, and the only reason they
>>can get away with it is because developers want to shove their hands into
>>the sand and not worry about deployment issues--"after all, we can worry
>>about that when we ship, right?". Naturally, with that attitude, they run
>>into HUGE issues when they ship, and that's when a huge number of
> 
> obstacles
> 
>>to future versioning are laid down for all eternity.
>>
>>I *like* the minimalist approach Axis takes. I *want* the sole artifact
> 
> out
> 
>>of my Axis build to be a .war file that can be dropped into any servlet
>>container, regardless of manufacturer. I weep for the developers using
>>jwsdp, because when they go to try and deploy under anything other than
>>jwsdp, they're hosed.
>>
>>Don't change a thing, IMHO.
>>
>>Ted Neward
>>Architect, UCDavis Account & Financial Services
>>http://www.javageeks.com
>>http://www.clrgeeks.com
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Sam Ruby [mailto:rubys@apache.org]
>>Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 03:48
>>To: axis-user@xml.apache.org
>>Subject: Re: I hate axis because...
>>
>>
>>Steve Loughran wrote:
>>
>>>I think Axis is troublesome to install, as evidenced by much discussion
>>
>>on
>>
>>>the matter (I'm catching up on 10 days mail and half the 360 messages
>>
> in
> 
>>>this list are config issues). Does this make Axis worse than JWSDP?
>>
> They
> 
>>>cheated: their distro includes tomcat, the soap server, xerces,
>>
>>ant1.4.1+the
>>
>>>XP patch, whatever; it is almost a unified Apache Distro of everything
>>
>>short
>>
>>>of Axis. But because it is all integrated there are less install
>>
> issues.
> 
>>>Nobody has to worry about jwsdp on weblogic 'cept BEA.
>>
>>Perhaps this is obvious, but i will state it anyway.  There is nothing
>>stopping us from doing likewise.
>>
>>- Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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