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From Afkham Azeez <afk...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Axis2] Isn't it time for us to move to Java 6?
Date Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:25:42 GMT
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:40 AM, Andreas Veithen
<andreas.veithen@gmail.com>wrote:

> We need to take into account the interest of the entire user
> community, not just particular customers of particular companies
> selling particular services. In addition, dropping support for Java
> 1.5 is not going to change things fundamentally for these
> customers/companies:
>
> * We already have developers testing with Java 1.6 and test coverage
> doesn't grow linearly with the number of developers.
> * There is empirical evidence (see the mailing list posts of the last
> few days) that there are some parts of Axis2 that are not regularly
> tested at all. This means that the primary concern with respect to
> testing is not the Java 1.6 vs. 1.5 question.
> * Once Java 1.7 is out, you will again be in a situation where
> different developers use different versions of Java.
>
> Finally, if you want to sell a service, then you need to create some
> added value that justifies the price of the service. If that service
> consists in providing certified distributions of an Open Source
> product, then obviously the added value is created by extensively
> testing the product on some platform. That is not something that the
> volunteer developers in the Open Source project will ever do for you.
> They will always provide the software "as is".
>

I was speaking with my Apache hat on. I just mentioned our experience at
WSO2 to demonstrate some real world constraints when it comes to putting
software in production. I was not suggesting that the community do the
testing on Java 6 because we want to support commercial customers who are on
Java 6. FYI, we at WSO2 exclusively test Axis2 based products on Java 6. So,
we are confident that it works well on Java 6. However, what I was thinking
was will that be a good enough answer for people who want to download and
use Axis2 on Java 6 in production. I believe incorporating real world
production deployment experience into the development processes & practices
of open source projects would really be beneficial for these projects.


>
> If one takes into account all these things, I don't see how your
> argument could possibly outweigh the arguments given by Dennis and
> Tom.
>
> Andreas
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 03:14, Afkham Azeez <afkham@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 2:33 AM, Andreas Veithen <
> andreas.veithen@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't see any empirical evidence that would support the claim that
> >> Axis2 is not sufficiently tested with Java 1.6. How do you come to
> >> that conclusion?
> >
> > What percentage of developers build/test Axis2 on a regular basis on Java
> > 1.6? As providers of commercial support for Axis2 based software, we have
> > seen critical issues related to Java. So much so, some of the minor
> versions
> > have produced critical production issues. So, having extensively tested
> > Axis2 in a Java 1.5 environment does not satisfy corporate customers.
> Some
> > customers require the software provider to certify which specific Sun/IBM
> > etc. JDK versions against which the software has been tested.
> > A flat statement like, 'it works on Java 1.5 and above' can be
> theoretical
> > acceptable, but for all practical purposes, it has no real meaning.  In
> > theory, Java is write once run anywhere. In practice, Java is write once,
> > debug everywhere. :)
> >
> >>
> >> Andreas
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 08:21, Afkham Azeez <afkham@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > If you were working for a company which required that their software
> run
> >> > on
> >> > JDK6 and when you ask the developers whether they have extensively
> >> > tested
> >> > the software on JDK 6, and the answer is, yes, the continuous
> >> > integration
> >> > system runs that, but we developers mostly test it with JDK5, would
> you
> >> > be
> >> > confident enough to provide an assurance to your management that Axis2
> >> > works
> >> > perfectly on JDK6? Theoretically everything should work fine, but we
> >> > know
> >> > how software behaves :)
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Andreas Veithen
> >> > <andreas.veithen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> If somebody asks that question, the correct answer is that we have
> >> >> automated builds that check every single commit against both Java
> >> >> versions and that our developers are using different Java versions
> >> >> from different vendors on different platforms. I know that some
> >> >> developers use 1.6 because it happened in the past that they
> committed
> >> >> things to the trunk that broke the build on Java 1.5. These issues
> >> >> were mostly related to the endorsed library stuff in JAX-WS and easy
> >> >> to fix.
> >> >>
> >> >> Maintaining 1.5 compatibility doesn't mean that we force people to
> >> >> stay away from Java 1.6. It also doesn't mean that developers have
to
> >> >> use Java 1.5. It only means that developers should watch the
> >> >> notifications from Jenkins and take appropriate actions if they break
> >> >> the build on 1.5. Obviously this may include deciding to drop support
> >> >> for 1.5 if at some point the cost of maintaining 1.5 compatibility
> >> >> becomes too high.
> >> >>
> >> >> Andreas
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 05:48, Afkham Azeez <afkham@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> > What I'm saying is, if somebody asks has Axis2 been thoroughly
> tested
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > JDK/JRE 6, the best answer we could give is; 'Yes, everything
> should
> >> >> > work
> >> >> > fine, but we the developers have not rigorously tested it with
JDK
> 6,
> >> >> > nor do
> >> >> > we regularly build it with JDK 6. So yeah, run in on JDK 6 on
your
> >> >> > own
> >> >> > risk"
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Afkham Azeez <afkham@gmail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What I've been observing is the world is gradually moving
away
> from
> >> >> >> Java
> >> >> >> 5, most of the people who download a JDK download JDK 6. The
JRE
> >> >> >> itself
> >> >> >> contains many improvements. Sticking to JDK5 means, Axis2
does not
> >> >> >> get
> >> >> >> tested of Java 6 on a regular basis by the developers, so
we
> cannot
> >> >> >> give
> >> >> >> 100% assurance that everything in Axis2 works fine with Java
6.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Dennis Sosnoski <
> dms@sosnoski.com>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> On 03/16/2011 12:59 AM, Afkham Azeez wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Dennis Sosnoski <
> dms@sosnoski.com>
> >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Going from 1.4 to 1.5 gave access to many new features.
Going
> from
> >> >> >>>> 1.5
> >> >> >>>> to 1.6 seems to me to add very little that's useful.
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> What do you see as the big advantages of moving to
1.6/Java 6?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Perhaps you are in a better position to answer that question
than
> >> >> >>> me
> >> >> >>> :)
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I guess I'm confused - I thought you were the one saying
we
> should
> >> >> >>> move
> >> >> >>> to requiring Java 6?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> One of the main "advances" of Java 6 is the bundling of
> >> >> >>> Sun/Oracle's
> >> >> >>> JAXB
> >> >> >>> and JAX-WS implementations into the base distribution.
But that's
> >> >> >>> not
> >> >> >>> really
> >> >> >>> a gain for us on Axis2, since we want to use our own versions
> >> >> >>> instead
> >> >> >>> of the
> >> >> >>> (generally outdated) ones that are present in the distribution.
> >> >> >>> Aside
> >> >> >>> from
> >> >> >>> that, there are a few added classes (with Deque probably
the most
> >> >> >>> useful),
> >> >> >>> and some scattered added methods. None of this is going
to make
> any
> >> >> >>> significant difference to the Axis2 codebase, as far as
I can
> see.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>   - Dennis
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Afkham Azeez
> >> >> >> Senior Software Architect & Senior Manager; WSO2,
> >> >> >> Inc.; http://wso2.com,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
> >> >> >> email: azeez@wso2.com cell: +94 77 3320919
> >> >> >> blog: http://blog.afkham.org
> >> >> >> twitter: http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez
> >> >> >> linked-in: http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Afkham Azeez
> >> >> > Senior Software Architect & Senior Manager; WSO2,
> >> >> > Inc.; http://wso2.com,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
> >> >> > email: azeez@wso2.com cell: +94 77 3320919
> >> >> > blog: http://blog.afkham.org
> >> >> > twitter: http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez
> >> >> > linked-in: http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@axis.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@axis.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Afkham Azeez
> >> > Senior Software Architect & Senior Manager; WSO2, Inc.;
> http://wso2.com,
> >> >
> >> > Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
> >> > email: azeez@wso2.com cell: +94 77 3320919
> >> > blog: http://blog.afkham.org
> >> > twitter: http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez
> >> > linked-in: http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez
> >> >
> >> > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@axis.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@axis.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Afkham Azeez
> > Senior Software Architect & Senior Manager; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com,
> >
> > Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
> > email: azeez@wso2.com cell: +94 77 3320919
> > blog: http://blog.afkham.org
> > twitter: http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez
> > linked-in: http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez
> >
> > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@axis.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@axis.apache.org
>
>


-- 
*Afkham Azeez*
Senior Software Architect & Senior Manager; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com,
*
*
*Member; Apache Software Foundation;
**http://www.apache.org/*<http://www.apache.org/>
*
email: **azeez@wso2.com* <azeez@wso2.com>* cell: +94 77 3320919
blog: **http://blog.afkham.org* <http://blog.afkham.org>*
twitter: **http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez*<http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez>
*
linked-in: **http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez*
*
*
*Lean . Enterprise . Middleware*
*
*

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