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From Aleksander Slominski <>
Subject [wsif] today chat log
Date Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:57:07 GMT

we have discussed topics related to release:
* check RELEASE_TASKS.txt and modify accordingly and pick up taks (we 
need them all taken care of and avoid possible overlaps)
* next chat on Monday and beta release next week
* check current 2.0alpha2 release and report problems
* check if we can distribute all jar files
* samples (we need to decide what does in and what is not to be in 
release -as nobody works on JCA or EJB samples AFAIK)
* samples are crucial to show what WSIF can do and how to use it
* we need sample for EJB
* we need sample for JMS/SOAP
* we need sample for JCA
* documentation: we have most of it now but some reading/checking will 
only make it better
* document each sample (Nirmal is doing great work here both writing and 
documenting samples)
* we need more people to check documentation
* document WSIF code and give higher level docs than just Javadocs
* Forrest proposal check in into proposals directory in CVS
* fix remaining critical bugs [Ant: it seems we have only one with Axis 
* if possible no code changes until we have release unless it is bug fix 
* how to structure jar dependencies (subdirectories or everything in one 
directory) [to be resolved later]



[10:33] <nirmal> Alek, why don't you start?
[10:34] <alek_s> sorry
[10:34] <alek_s> was gone for few minutes
[10:34] <alek_s> could we just revew RELEASE_PLAN?
[10:34] <alek_s> can we do it by the end of this week?
[10:34] <nirmal> ok
[10:35] <nirmal> the final relase - end of next week!
[10:35] <nirmal> not this week
[10:35] <hughesj> right ... we want beta this week
[10:35] <nirmal> I think it is possible to do beta tomorrow and final 
release end of next week as we planned
[10:36] <alek_s> i think this too
[10:36] <alek_s> however looking on RELEASE_TASKS.txt 
[10:36] <antElder> I don't think the doc is ready for a beta yet, 
specifically the web site
[10:36] <alek_s> there is plenty that nobody works on
[10:36] <alek_s> we either take soem tasks or ditch them ...
[10:36] <hughesj> we need something for web site up before declaring ebta
[10:37] <antElder> Owen has been working on a new site based on Forest
[10:37] <alek_s> i think if we add wsif directory under axis to xml-site 
it should work?
[10:37] <alek_s> ok Forrest sounds even better
[10:37] <antElder> but to use that we really need to convert all the 
existing html
[10:37] <alek_s> what is ETA?
[10:37] <hughesj> will some portion of that be ready for tomorrow?
[10:38] <alek_s> me personally i really like simplicity of editing HTML 
files ...
[10:38] <antElder> the Forest xml is real simple
[10:39] <hughesj> when it comes to navigators (a good thing from a 
usability point of view) forrest has to be easier than creating them 
ourselves in raw html
[10:39] <hughesj> lets face it ... what people expect from web sites 
nowadays is more than something we can knock up simply in raw hand 
crafted html
[10:39] <hughesj> Owen, could you check up what there is
[10:39] <alek_s> i do not write raw html  ...
[10:40] <hughesj> then perhaps we could split the tasks
[10:40] <alek_s> but i can write raw xml ...
[10:40] <antElder> I'd like for Owen to make accessable the 1st page 
he's done so everyone can see it
[10:40] <nirmal> That sounds good, I'd like to see it (the final page 
and the raw XML)
[10:40] <hughesj> Owen is there a way of 'testing' the html generated by 
xml-site locally before waiting for to catch up?
[10:41] <alek_s> me too: to have some idea what it will look like and 
how to use it
[10:41] <nirmal> However, can we create and 
populate it with our current HTML docs for now?
[10:41] <owenb> I could check up the html that forrest has generated - 
I've only done one page fully so far but it would give an idea. 
Ultimately we'd want to check up the xml files and have the site built 
by forrest when xml-site gets built
[10:41] <antElder> then if we decided to go with that everyone can start 
moving html to it. There's to mcuh now for Owen to do all
[10:41] <nirmal> right - I'm thinking this is a post-2.0 task
[10:41] <alek_s> thne maybe we should wait with "Forrest"-ation until 
next release?
[10:42] <alek_s> (the same thining as nirmal :-))
[10:42] <owenb> Where should I "dump" the html I've generated?
[10:42] <antElder> I really don't think what we have now is good enough
[10:42] <nirmal> for now why don't you put it under proposals?
[10:43] <hughesj> we have a link to WSIF on ... are 
we deciding to make a simple web page from that
[10:43] <owenb> ok I'll put the entire wsif forrest site under proposals 
and people can then play around with it on their machines
[10:43] <hughesj> indicating we have a beta and if you want 
documentation then download it!
[10:43] <nirmal> Ant, do feel strongly enough to delay releasing WSIF by 
say 3-4 weeks for the sake of better looking web pages?
[10:43] <hughesj> perhaps that's what we should do ... but aim for a 
beta in the next few days
[10:44] <hughesj> then there is maybe 3-4 weeks between beta and release
[10:44] <hughesj> to get the web site info looking right
[10:44] <antElder> lets look at what Owen has now, decide, and if we go 
with it we could get everything using it by next week
[10:44] <nirmal> Jeremy: no, I think we should have a full fledged web 
site on - the HTML will be simple, like Axis 
and Apache SOAP
[10:44] <antElder> it doesn't need to be generated with every build yet
[10:44] <alek_s> i think that simple HTML for now is good
[10:44] <hughesj> Nirmal: is that a beta statement ?
[10:45] <antElder> 10 minutes to go, are there other issues besides the 
web site?
[10:45] <alek_s> i have just updated RELEASE_TASKS.txt
[10:45] <nirmal> I'm in favor of releasing next week, on, with full documentation that isn't so pretty 
looking, then putting Forrest in and doing a 2.0.x in Jan
[10:45] <alek_s> split into high/medium/low
[10:46] <alek_s> i think onlyu "high" are criticila for 2.0 release 
[10:46] <antElder> One thing I'd like is for all the jars we ddistribute 
to be in the lib dir not sub directories
[10:46] <alek_s> +1 to releas enext week
[10:46] <alek_s> if you put them into one liub direcotry you never knwo 
what are depnedencies (for example current AXIS needs servlet API on 
client side)
[10:47] <hughesj> which out of the "high" are required for beta and 
which for final
[10:47] <antElder> would you consider looking at what owen has ?
[10:47] <alek_s> i will check what is proposals for sure
[10:48] <antElder> so can we decide about what to do with the web site 
tomorrow then?
[10:48] <nirmal> Ant I'm not doubting that Forrest will make things much 
better, but a functional (though not great looking) site like Axis is 
sufficient, we don't have to delay our first release for the sake of 
Forrest IMO
[10:48] <alek_s> what matyters is _documentation_
[10:49] <alek_s> hjow it looks is secondary 
[10:49] <antElder> Ok firstly last time I tried the site wsn't functional
[10:49] <alek_s> as good  documentation is always better than non 
existing documentation (that will look good in future) ...
[10:49] <antElder> so it needs fixing now
[10:49] <antElder> and forest looks so easy why not use that if we can
[10:50] <nirmal> I completely agree with that Ant
[10:50] <antElder> maybe we can't, lets see what goes in proposals and 
how much work we think it would be
[10:51] <nirmal> What needs to be fixed is: addition of content, better 
organization - that comes first. Whether the presentation is done using 
Forrest or HTML directly is secondary
[10:51] <antElder> so the jars in lib, what do others think?
[10:51] <alek_s> what you think: are there any other things to do for 
first official relelease?
[10:51] <alek_s> i have seen some checking - what is status of code?
[10:51] <hughesj> the jars in lib ... why are we doing that ... Axis doesn't
[10:52] <alek_s> from current RELEASE_TASKS
[10:52] <nirmal> The samples are going slowly, I'm just starting on the 
J2EE ones (JCA, JMS, EJB) and may need help - I'll might ask for help 
next week if things aren't done by Monday
[10:52] <owenb> Here's something - the binary distribution of WSIF 
should not have our testcases in it
[10:52] <alek_s> * [owen] investigate using Forrest for creating 
separate pages for WSIF outside Axis 
[10:52] <alek_s> * [nirmal + alek] samples and modularization
[10:52] <alek_s> * make sure that all dependencies are documented
[10:52] <alek_s> * [nirmal + alek] document how to run samples (step by 
[10:52] <alek_s> * [nirmal + alek] document how to build (step by step)
[10:52] <alek_s> should there be code freeze ...
[10:52] <alek_s> i have removed testcases source code from bin distribution
[10:52] <antElder> yes btw RCx and final
[10:53] <hughesj> Owen can you add that to the high priority items in 
[10:53] <nirmal> ok, so code freeze prior to RC1, which I'm guessing 
might be on Wednesday...
[10:53] <alek_s> Jeremy: i have restructure lib to amke it easy to pick 
lib for packages you want to compile with and to make easier to plug 
inany JAR files you want 
[10:53] <hughesj> oh alek you did that already sorry
[10:54] <owenb> Jeremy - add what to the list?
[10:54] <hughesj> I'm nervous about saaj.jar ... we shouldn't be 
redistributing that because it has a Sun license
[10:54] <hughesj> don't you think?
[10:54] <nirmal> If we find out that Forrest is easy to do I'm willing 
to spend significant time fixing the docs next week
[10:54] <antElder> axis has saaj.jar doesn't it?
[10:54] <nirmal> Axis distributes it, right? But you're right we can't 
distribute if it has a Sun license
[10:54] <alek_s> i have copied saaj from AXIS binary distribution (and 
made note about it in README.txt)!
[10:55] <alek_s> if they can distribute we can too!
[10:55] <antElder> yes just checked it does
[10:55] <hughesj> ah yes, Axis does distribute it hmmmmm
[10:55] <nirmal> Alek could you check with someone on Axis about that - 
Dims or Sam I would think might know
[10:56] <alek_s> ok i will do it
[10:56] <antElder> so what do others think about having all the jars in 
lib, or many subdirs?
[10:56] <hughesj> plus any others that aren't Apache license I guess
[10:57] <hughesj> Alek ... what are your guidelines about whether a jar 
should be in our CVS / our bindist ?
[10:57] <alek_s> i am against as it makes extremely hard ot create 
useful depenedencies - example when you need two different versions of 
the same package like log4j ...
[10:58] <hughesj> I guess it's nice to have xerces but this makes the 
package larger and people probably already have xerces. Axis doesn't 
ship xerces in bindist
[10:59] <nirmal> I'm in favor of including everything we are legally 
allowed to with the bin dist
[10:59] <alek_s> without xerces you *can not* compile WSIF now (serializer)
[10:59] <antElder> so 4pm, and it looks like there's to issues:
[10:59] <antElder> - the web site
[11:00] <antElder> - jars we distribute
[11:00] <alek_s> otherwise i would just include XML APIs - but having 
Xerces is nice to simplify build
[11:01] <alek_s> in general we have two major problems: samples and 
[11:01] <hughesj> alek ... are you saying the user can't compile the 
sample code without Xerces
[11:01] <alek_s> yes
[11:01] <alek_s> (to be precise can not compiel WSIF - i did not check 
just sampels)
[11:01] <hughesj> that's probably true with Axis samples and they don't 
ship Xerces
[11:01] <hughesj> oh right
[11:01] <hughesj> but the people downloading bindist won't be compiling WSIF
[11:02] <hughesj> timeout!
[11:02] <antElder> the jms provider uses xerces classes
[11:02] <antElder> alek mentioned it on axis-dev earlier
[11:03] <alek_s> yes
[11:03] <alek_s> i will submit it as a bug
[11:04] <hughesj> Alek: if you are contacting Dims/Sam via axis-dev 
about what dependency jars we're allowed to ship then we can also 
discuss there whether we should be distributing other peoples jars since 
clearly Axis has a guideline and we are using a different one
[11:04] <nirmal> I don't believe there is a Apache guideline or anything 
like that
[11:04] <alek_s> in 1.0 bin dist AXIS jsut dropped all jar file into lib 
directory - no license or where they were obtained from and no version 
information too ...
[11:05] <antElder> its very convenient to havethem all in lib
[11:05] <antElder> i like that
[11:05] <nirmal> And it there was I'd fight it - believe me, you have to 
make the WSIF dist now and use it, it's so incredibly simple with the 
scripts to set up classpath, build, etc.
[11:06] <hughesj> ok
[11:06] <nirmal> The main thing we are trying to do is get a new user to 
get the samples running in minimum possible time, so including all the 
jars we can is a very good thing
[11:07] <hughesj> ok .... lets just check we're not redistributing 
something we shouldn't be
[11:07] <nirmal> right, absolutely
[11:07] <antElder> also I doubt we'd get the JMS provider fixed to not 
use xerces by next week
[11:07] <nirmal> I think that's fine as long as we document it...
[11:07] <nirmal> ok, can go over action items then?
[11:09] <alek_s> yes
[11:09] <alek_s> so i have for now:
[11:09] <alek_s> * check if we cna distribute jar files
[11:09] <alek_s> * Forrest proposal
[11:09] <alek_s> * samples (we need to decide what does in and what is 
not to be in releeas -as nobody wworks on JCA or EJB samples AFAIK)
[11:10] <alek_s> * documentation: we have most of it now but some 
reading/checking will not hurt
[11:10] <alek_s> * if possible no code chnages until we have releleas 
unless it is bug fix ...
[11:10] <antElder> I'm still working on the axis provider
[11:10] <nirmal> Documentation needs to be reorganized mainly - 
especially the README page (I'll do it)
[11:11] <nirmal> I think EJB, JCA, JMS samples are essential to show the 
value of WSIF - and the user doesn't have to run them if he doesn't want to
[11:12] <nirmal> One important task now listed in RELASE_TASKS AFAIK: 
writing documentation for JCA binding
[11:12] <alek_s> it is listed but has low priority ...
[11:12] <nirmal> ok
[11:12] <antElder> I agree with about ejb etc sanmples, but I don't 
think we can have them done by next week
[11:13] <alek_s> so this will be beta release ...
[11:13] <antElder> or a 2.0 release with not so much doc
[11:13] <alek_s> i have only very vagua idea how EJB or JMS provider 
works and have never succeded running it or any tests :-(
[11:13] <alek_s> .. otherwise i would write samle and docs for it
[11:14] <nirmal> I've successfully used EJB provider so I think I can 
get that working - the hard part is providing enough 
information/deployment etc. files so it is easy to set up
[11:14] <nirmal> I think JMS provider should be possible too - JCA is 
the only one I have no idea about
[11:14] <nirmal> I'm working on EJB and JMS providers and plan (cross 
fingers) to have something by next week
[11:15] <nirmal> s/providers/samples
[11:15] <owenb> EJB provider is easy to use once you've set up the EJB 
but that's the hard bit or should I say the bit that's hard to describe
[11:16] <owenb> Since it depends on what App server you are using
[11:16] <nirmal> right
[11:16] <nirmal> if all goes well I plan to include instructions for 
running on JBoss and WebSphere, but let's see...
[11:16] <owenb> sounds good
[11:17] <alek_s> Ant: why do you wan to have all jar files in lib 
[11:17] <antElder> all the other products I've seen do this so it seems 
[11:18] <hughesj> if you do have them in lib directory then you can do 
java -Djava.ext.dirs=<lib directory>
[11:19] <antElder> yes
[11:19] <hughesj> no need to specify all jars separately on classpath
[11:19] <nirmal> With WSIF all you do is run classpath.bat, you never 
have to set a classpath yourself
[11:19] <hughesj> ok I haven't been using that :-)
[11:19] <nirmal> Also having separate dirs lets you put a README for 
each jar, describing its version, where to download from, etc.
[11:20] <antElder> anyway we just need to decide with either way
[11:20] <nirmal> I think Alek put it in yesterday
[11:20] <hughesj> I prefer all readmes in one place
[11:20] <hughesj> only one place to look at
[11:21] <nirmal> Some jars are optional. Others are required. Having 
them in the same place makes it confusing.
[11:21] <alek_s> please downlaod current relelease and keep in mind we 
wnat to make it wasy for new WSIF user to get started
[11:22] <antElder> shall we decide now or think about it and vote on 
axis-dev tomorrow?
[11:22] <alek_s> time form download to run first sample dhould be few 
minutes max ...
[11:22] <hughesj> ok I'll have a look at what you've posted on
[11:22] <nirmal> try the alpha2
[11:22] <nirmal> i'd rather not vote on such a small issue, we should 
have consensus
[11:23] <antElder> ok, I like all jars in lib
[11:23] <nirmal> Ant: try the alpha2 first and then decide
[11:24] <antElder> If im the only one, I don't mind the other way though
[11:24] <antElder> thats not the issue
[11:24] <antElder> i develope in eclipse so I don't use the bat files
[11:24] <antElder> most peple would use an ide?
[11:25] <alek_s> but then they need ot have their won set up
[11:25] <antElder> and all in one dir makes it easy
[11:25] <alek_s> you need ot set your classpath in you IDE anyway
[11:25] <alek_s> and you willprobabaly work from CVS too ..
[11:25] <owenb> I think that a lib dir should contain all the jars not 
sub-directories for each jar
[11:26] <alek_s> that i think is different set of requirements then 
downlaod and try WSIF and get samples running fast
[11:27] <hughesj> I would like to add a hi-prio task (I volunteer) to 
take out the java/src and java/test directory trees from the bin dist
[11:27] <nirmal> you realise that if the lib dir contained all the jars 
there would be 18 of them?
[11:27] <antElder> compared with 18 subdirs?
[11:27] <nirmal> No, fewer subdirs (for example wsdl4j.jhar and 
qname.jar both fit under wsdl4j subdir)
[11:27] <owenb> For consistency with most/all? other products that use 
Java, a lib directory should contain all the lib jars
[11:28] <owenb> 18 jars is not a lot
[11:28] <nirmal> WSIF is unique - the jars are like plugins - put in a 
jar for a new provider and off you go - it's almost like the Eclipse plugins
[11:28] <alek_s> Jeremy: this is alredy done - check build.xml in CVS 
and bindist
[11:28] <owenb> Ah but we're not taling about provider jars
[11:28] <hughesj> ok great ... just noticed it was a problem with alpha2
[11:29] <alek_s> each provider will have its own set of dependencies
[11:29] <alek_s> (or should have - currently it is not possoble to 
compile only one provider)
[11:30] <nirmal> right, I think separating the jars is a step towards 
the eventual modularization - making providers independent from the 
core, etc.
[11:30] <antElder> shall we disagree on this for now and discuss it 
again on irc later?
[11:30] <alek_s> i agree to disagree
[11:30] <hughesj> the 'Ant' project libs don't need to be in the bindist
[11:31] <alek_s> we have mouch more imprtant taks: like testing 
doscumntatio, writing javadocs, writing sampels, testing sampels (those 
really matter for WSIF users)
[11:31] <nirmal> ok, let's discuss after you guys have tried running 
what's in CVS now - if you still feel strongly I don't mind moving to a 
flat structure
[11:33] <alek_s> i will post irc chat log
[11:33] <antElder> do we want to discuss any of the bugzzila bugs? 
(getting them into 2.0 I mean)
[11:33] <alek_s> here is list of tasks i have extracted form today chat
[11:33] <alek_s> Ant: what bugs are criticial and must be fixed for this 
[11:33] <nirmal> I don't feel any are critical, but I'd be happy if 
somebody has time to fix them of course
[11:34] <antElder> I was am fixing the one about the axis provider, not 
sure if I've read all the others
[11:34] <antElder> (am fixing)
[11:35] <antElder> ok no, I guess they're not important
[11:35] <antElder> shame about the mail/activation jar ones, we can't 
distribute them can we?
[11:36] <nirmal> ok, can we wrap up? (lunch time!)
[11:37] <alek_s> it is hard ot knwo what is going on just from CVS 
commits ...
[11:37] <alek_s> here is what i got for things to do:
[11:37] <nirmal> no we can't distribute, but Alek I'd change the 
dependencies so that you ask users to download j2ee.jar only, forgot 
mail and activation (since it includes them) - of course it might be 
overkill for the user, but asking them to download just one more jar 
file is very attractive
[11:38] <hughesj> agreed
[11:38] <hughesj> can I just say that I've been very impressed with the 
speed that this has all been happening over the last week
[11:38] <alek_s> J2EE (and j2ee.jar) is a huge downlaod so i would leave 
it as an optin: download J2EE or activatin/mail
[11:38] <alek_s> * check current 2.0alpah2 releease and report problems 
[11:38] <alek_s> * check if we can distribute all jar files 
[11:38] <alek_s> * samples (we need to decide what does in and what is 
not to be in releeas -as nobody wworks on JCA or EJB samples AFAIK) 
[11:38] <alek_s> * sampels are crucial to show what WSIF can do and how 
to use it 
[11:38] <alek_s> * we need sample for EJB 
[11:38] <alek_s> * we need sample for JSM/SOAP 
[11:38] <alek_s> * we need sample for JCA 
[11:38] <alek_s> * documentation: we have most of it now but some 
reading/checking will only make it better 
[11:38] <alek_s> * document each sample (Nirmal is doing great work here 
both writing and coumenting sampels) 
[11:38] <alek_s> * we need more peope to check documntation 
[11:38] <alek_s> * document WSIF code and give higher level docs than 
just Javadocs 
[11:38] <alek_s> * Forrest proposal check in into proposals directory in 
[11:38] <alek_s> * if possible no code chnages until we have releleas 
unless it is bug fix ... 
[11:38] <alek_s> * fix remainign cricial bugs [Ant: it seesm we have 
only onw with Axis provider] 
[11:38] <alek_s>  
[11:39] <alek_s> please take a look: what did i miss onthis list?
[11:40] <nirmal> add issue of structuring jar dependencies
[11:40] <nirmal> to be resolved later
[11:40] <alek_s> * how to structure jar dependencies (subdirectoris or 
everything in one directory) [to be resolved later]
[11:41] <hughesj> so what day next week are we targetting the beta for?
[11:41] <hughesj> and are we saying 'high' priority only for beta?
[11:41] <hughesj> if so lets call those tasks 'beta priority'
[11:41] <nirmal> I'd like Monday afternoon - gives me some time to 
improve docs a bit and hopefully do an EJB sample
[11:42] <alek_s> ok - i have it chnaged to 'for beta release - high 
[11:42] <hughesj> nice!
[11:42] <nirmal> then more betas if reqd, followed by RC1 on Wed 
afternoon, more RCs if reqd, then release on Friday by noon
[11:43] <nirmal> this is all very quick but IMO being done before the 
holidays is priority #1 as we decided earlier
[11:43] <hughesj> another irc on Monday?
[11:43] <nirmal> I don't mind (but let's make it shorter ;-))
[11:44] <alek_s> i will be in Poland
[11:44] <hughesj> yes ... lets just talk over the items for beta
[11:44] <alek_s> no problem with emails but may have problems with IRC 
or upload/doanload of big files 
[11:44] <hughesj> will you join from Poland?
[11:44] <antElder> yes I'd like an irc before cuttting beta
[11:44] <hughesj> email only with Alek then
[11:45] <hughesj> bye everyone
[11:45] *** Signoff: hughesj (Quit)
[11:46] <alek_s> i will try :-)
[11:46] <alek_s> yes but eamil is 100% gurantee (just slower)
[11:46] <nirmal> ok, bye
[11:46] <alek_s> bye bye
[11:46] <nirmal> Alek, post transript to axis-dev?
[11:46] <alek_s> i will post irc logs
[11:46] <antElder> bye all

The ancestor of every action is a thought. - Ralph Waldo Emerson 

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