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From Darrell DeBoer <darr...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Context: usage recommendations? ( Re: [SUMMARY] Context )
Date Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:43:12 GMT
Thanks Gary,

It's funny, I woke up this morning with a similar conclusion. Yesterday, for 
the first time, I could see both Peter's and Stephen's arguments for a 
distinction between Container-supplied and Peer-supplied services (or 
"(non)priviledged" as Stephen is calling the distinction).

The problem with both of these distinctions is that they are about Container 
implementation. My take on it is thus:

Peter wants to distinguish Container-provided services, because the person 
doing the assembly doesn't have to specify them in the assembly file. 
Unfortunately, it's quite easy to imagine one container which provides a 
certain service directly, and a different one which requries a 
user-configured component to provide the same service. So by distinguishing 
between these in *code*, the component will be inherently non-portable. 
(Whereas the assembly file can be thought of as container-specific? - At 
least it's easy to change for a new deployment).

Stephen wants to have the notion of priviledged services, so he can implement 
life-cycle handlers and context providers as components (at least this is 
what I've garnered from the emails, I don't know the code). While this sounds 
cool from the design perspective, it seems like this notion should be kept 
out of Framework, as it's a specific requirement of the Merlin container. 
Other containers may want to provide extensibility in a completely different 
way (maybe the "interceptors" Pete has eluded to fall into this). What 
follows is that regular components which rely just on Framework contracts 
will be portable, whereas Merlin lifecycle extension components don't need to 
be, so they can use a Merlin-specific contracts and interfaces.

(Who says having competing container implementations is a bad thing? ;)

This example is giving me a few troubles:
> > getServletContext().isPrincipleInRole( String role, Principle p );
> > getSessionContext().isCallerInRole( String role );

These are container provided services, and it would "feel" right that they 
would be split out from the provision of other services. But then you 
realise: - these interfaces are defined as part of a specification. The 
container can't choose whether or not to provides these things, they are 
required. And the container can't arbitrarily provide new stuff in this way, 
since then a component would become non-portable.

So I can't see the argument for the Container-provided/Peer-provided divide. 
But I can see an argument for a logical and code separation of services 
defined in the spec (and therefore part of the Avalon-Framework contracts), 
and other services (both container and peer).

At the moment, I don't think any such services exist. Maybe we should come up 
with some, and *maybe* they should be provided in a separate mechanism to 
regular services. But since they are part of the spec, components won't need 
to "declare" the context they require, and things like MailetContext and 
ServletContext are removed from these arguments, since they aren't part of 
the Avalon-Framework contracts.

This is my take on the matter, anyhow.

ciao
Daz

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 04:05, Gary Shea wrote:
> I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest, since I
> have the same questions as Adam has been asking.  My experience with
> using Avalon is that Context is great until you get someone else's
> container involved in the picture.  At that point it becomes a minor
> nightmare, since each container sees it differently.
>
> My views are from the perspective of a component writer who wants to
> avoid container lock-in.
>
> I've been willing to adopt the data/services distinction, because the
> container I want to use (merlin) does so.  But the data/services
> paradigm turns Context into either a less-capable Configuration or a
> declaratively-driven object builder.  The idea of Context as an object
> builder feels kind of baroque to me, and I can't imagine that all
> containers will do it, so in merlin I don't use Context at all.
>
> The container-provided/peer-provided view is one I'd be willing to adopt
> also.  In this view, Context is container-dependent, and is simply
> anathema to the component writer who wants to maintain cross-container
> portability.  That's the extent of my interest.  I can see how this
> view would be useful to someone building a tightly-coupled
> component/container system, but my goal is to avoid that at all costs.
>
> As you can see, I wouldn't use Context under either of the data/service
> or container/peer paradigms.  I think that's ok.
>
> If this discussion had to end today, I'd say Context is a red herring
> and should be discarded.  It would be replaced with two new stages:
> ObjectConfigurable and ContainerServiceable.
>
>         Gary
>
> [2002-12-04 21:56 +1100] Peter Donald (peter@realityforge.org) wrote:
> > On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:07, Adam Murdoch wrote:
> > > These are useful things, no question.  Components need some way to get
> > > at data and services that are supplied by the container.  Again, why do
> > > they care that a particular service or piece of data was supplied by
> > > the container or a peer?
> >
> > Components don't care what the origins of the resource are - all of it is
> > potentially "contextualized" on a per component basis and all generally
> > has certain criteria to adhere to but beyond that it is about it. The
> > different resources are separated out for the sake of humans and no other
> > reason.
> >
> > Context is separated from ServiceManager because humans see them as
> > different things - especially during the assembly process.
> >
> > > Yes, I know that they're "different logical things".  But so are, say,
> > > authentication services and persistence services.  We don't use
> > > different mechanisms to deliver those services to components.  It would
> > > be pointless to do so:
> >
> > I disagree. If persistence were provided to the component and the
> > component was effectively made to be an OJB object or something like that
> > then we would likely provide persistence/transaction capabilities in a
> > very different manner. Most likely via some transparent EJB-like manner.
> >
> > In the same way if AAA services were provided to a component as part of
> > it's environment then it would likely also follow an EJB/Servlet style
> > setup where the container does it via interception and allows components
> > to access it programatically via something like
> >
> > getServletContext().isPrincipleInRole( String role, Principle p );
> > getSessionContext().isCallerInRole( String role );
> > (or insert real examples here or JAAS).
> >
> > If the services are things that the container provides to the component
> > as part of it's environment then the user perceives them as different to
> > services that the component uses. I can't think of one API that actually
> > merges the two concepts.
> >
> > When we tried to merge the two things together the primary reason we
> > separated them out again was because of user complaints. ie If a
> > resources requires resources A, B and C and C is container provided. All
> > three are accessed in the same way so the person sees them as much the
> > same (like the component sees them as much the same). However during
> > assembly they are only required to assemble A and B - which creates a
> > cognitive dissonance because they are treated as identical in one place
> > but different in another.
> >
> > > So which of these cases do you think offer the most benefit to the
> > > component writer?  Assume logger, config, params have been split out
> > > already: 1. No separation.
> > > 2. Separate data and services.
> > > 3. Separate container-provided resources and peer-provided resources.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > > 4. Separate container-provided data, container-provided services,
> > > peer-provided data, and peer-provided services.
> > > 5. Who cares?  Why are you bothering me with these questions?
> > >
> > :)
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Peter Donald
> > *------------------------------------------------*
> >
> > | Those who know how to think need no teachers.  |
> > |                                      - Gandhi  |
> >
> > *------------------------------------------------*
> >
> >
> > --
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