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From Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Breaking up Avalon
Date Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:19:29 GMT
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:34, Leo Simons wrote:
> I personally think that making phoenix a new top level project would be
> bad for apache as a whole because of the grossly overlapping concerns
> between any such phoenix project and a possible avalon project; we would
> have rather permanent fragmentation of community.

Phoenix has been in line for graduating out of Avalon for a very long time. It 
has had the momentum, community and support for a very long time. I have 
worked to discourage that behaviour through a number of different strategies. 
The phoenix-dev and apps lists were specifically created to give extra space 
and to avoid a split. Everytime the issue gets raised I would always suggest 
we put it off to when Phoenix was a released product or to some nebulous 
future point in time.

The main reason was this was because Avalon has a severe brand management 
problem. Before "Avalon" existed - when "Avalon" was just a code name for a 
version of the the "Java Apache Server Framework" - it had problems then. I 
expected that Phoenix would eventually start to gather some good karma/brand 
and it would rub off on Avalon proper. This would lead to a better 
development environment and a more active Avalon community.

Think of it as similar to Cocoon. Many of the successes of Avalon have been 
tied to Cocoon successes. Many developers first learn about Avalon from 
Cocoon. And many Avalon decisions were made for the benefit of Cocoon. 

I saw that synergy as being great and I believed that if the same could be 
true with Phoenix then Avalon would be sooo much better off. This was 
starting to happen. We had our first release and if we continue down this 
path we will soon have a very nice platform - which will hopefully channel 
some more interest back into Avalon. I had hoped to keep this internal to 
Avalon because it would create closer ties. If that can't be then so be it.

However the response so far has been encouraging. Mostly it has been of the 
form "about time!", "do it anyway", "easier sell to boss" etc.

As to overlapping charters. It is true that there is a degree of overlap - the 
new project would differ in that it is product-centric. It would all be about 
the development of a single container and thus many things that would be in 
scope for Avalon will be out of scope for Phoenix and vice versa. It is 
expected that Phoenix will still use A-F and parts of Avalon Excalibur and 
that there will be a high degree of cross talk.

The end result will be two communities but they need not be conflicting but 
can cooperate. Some believe that there are already two communities in Avalon 
- in which case the split is more than overdue anyways.

> I think that this would be bad from the perspective of users of apache
> software because it becomes difficult to choose between what would
> become competing projects (right now, we as avalon community can say "go
> use Avalon Phoenix or Avalon ECM, this-and-that version" and the
> competition is internal).

Not wanting competition is NOT a good reason to try and block said 
competition. After all that has happened in Avalon I would have hoped that 
this would be obvious. Competition should be encouraged, embraced and brought 
into the fold. If merges can not happen for technical reasons then obviously 
different markets were being served by competing codebase and thus they may 
not really compete but compliment.


Peter Donald
"Liberty means responsibility. That is 
      why most men dread it." - Locke

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