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From Leo Simons <leosim...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Breaking up Avalon
Date Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:03:37 GMT
many good points. reply inline.

On Sun, 2002-11-17 at 21:19, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:34, Leo Simons wrote:
> > I personally think that making phoenix a new top level project would be
> > bad for apache as a whole because of the grossly overlapping concerns
> > between any such phoenix project and a possible avalon project; we would
> > have rather permanent fragmentation of community.
> I saw that synergy as being great and I believed that if the same could be 
> true with Phoenix then Avalon would be sooo much better off. This was 
> starting to happen. We had our first release and if we continue down this 
> path we will soon have a very nice platform - which will hopefully channel 
> some more interest back into Avalon. I had hoped to keep this internal to 
> Avalon because it would create closer ties.

my thoughts too....

> If that can't be then so be it.

agreed. But if it "can't be" because of a social conflict (which is how
it really does seem to me now), I think the conflict should be resolved.

> However the response so far has been encouraging. Mostly it has been of the 
> form "about time!", "do it anyway", "easier sell to boss" etc.


> As to overlapping charters. It is true that there is a degree of overlap - the 
> new project would differ in that it is product-centric. It would all be about 
> the development of a single container and thus many things that would be in 
> scope for Avalon will be out of scope for Phoenix and vice versa. It is 
> expected that Phoenix will still use A-F and parts of Avalon Excalibur and 
> that there will be a high degree of cross talk.

makes sense. IMHO, avalon should try and be about a single container, a
minimal reference implementation....but that needs a definition of
container first....we've said all this before :D

> The end result will be two communities but they need not be conflicting but 
> can cooperate. Some believe that there are already two communities in Avalon 
> - in which case the split is more than overdue anyways.

:( I don't think there are two communities.

> > I think that this would be bad from the perspective of users of apache
> > software because it becomes difficult to choose between what would
> > become competing projects (right now, we as avalon community can say "go
> > use Avalon Phoenix or Avalon ECM, this-and-that version" and the
> > competition is internal).
> Not wanting competition is NOT a good reason to try and block said 
> competition. After all that has happened in Avalon I would have hoped that 
> this would be obvious. Competition should be encouraged, embraced and brought 
> into the fold. If merges can not happen for technical reasons then obviously 
> different markets were being served by competing codebase and thus they may 
> not really compete but compliment.

totally agree. The difference I see is between having competition within
a community (good) and competition between communities (bad).

As long as avalon and phoenix remain part of the same community where
competition is constructive the most important thing that changes when
phoenix moves out is the phoenix URL. From your original e-mail it seems
like you see the competition as destructive, and that is (and will
remain) the problem to fix.


- Leo

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