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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Avant-Garde Avalon
Date Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:53:24 GMT
Sal Mangano wrote:

>>however, the benefits of open source 
>>is that the code is still available, always will be, and you 
>>are free to do with it as you will. 
> Of course, I understand that is one of the benefits. But how many developers
> want the job of maintaining Avalon (or any other complex piece of open
> source) when they don't feel the current directions the source is taking
> fills their needs? Hence, the liability remains.
>>Anyone familiar with 
>>development in a corporate setting will understand that 
>>internal struggles are not unique to open source.  In those 
>>cases it is just behind closed doors.
> Of course. But what is often lacking in open source is the discipline
> imposed on commercial software via good old fashion capitalism. I have heard
> a million times that "Open Source is free as in speech not beer" but the
> reality is that most open source is "free as in beer". This causes several
> problems. When you accept something free and it changes out from under you,
> what do you do? What rights do you have as a customer? Afterall you did not
> pay anything? I think that in the back of the *some* open source developers
> minds this is exactly what justfies their doing what they want and not what
> the market is asking for, because there is no market in the traditional
> sense. 
> I belive in open source and support open source so please don't flame me!
> But I also belive as strongly in economic principles, capitalism and the
> power econmics has to correct mistakes made by groups that provide a product
> like software. Afterall, it may hurt a little to be flammed but it hurts a
> lot when your revenue stream dries up because you did not listen to your
> customers. 
> So keep it free as in speech but charge for the beer. This is the direction
> I think opens source needs to be moving lest it undermine itself in the long
> haul.


while I completely understand your feelings, I would like to point out 
that you are equating open source with the avalon community, but this is 
unfair for all the other projects, for example the other apache ones, 
that do not exhibit such social dynamics.

The ASF board of directors considers the avalon community as 
malfunctioning and several of us directors are working, without their 
board hats on, so try to find a definitive answer that will keep this 
project alive.

You are right: having the source available and covered by an 
OSI-certified license does *NOT* make it free. That's why the ASF 
believe in community diversity as a control form way more than 
individual leadership. That's why we say that community is more 
important than code.

The current technical leadership of the avalon community indicated 
explicitly and in several occasions that he does not believe in these 

This disconnection is creating all this negative energy and too many 
people are sick and tired of having to dissipate this energy to keep up 
with its operation, therefore the need for a resolution.

With my ASF director on, I can only apologize and guarantee you that 
your concerns are well between us already and have been there for a few 
years now and that we are making our collective best effort to solve 
this issue once and for all with the least impact on existing and future 


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