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From Leif Mortenson <leifli...@tanukisoftware.com>
Subject Re: Opinion Gathering on Fortress
Date Sat, 10 Apr 2004 03:31:02 GMT
Berin Loritsch wrote:

> I don't want to belabor the point, nor do I want this to drag on 
> forever.  Quite simply put, this opinion gathering tool is in the form 
> of a vote, but it is not binding.  It is only a way to show your 
> preference.  Please put a number of the order of preference that you 
> have for what to do with Fortress.  If any of the options is 
> completely disagreeable put a -1 next to it.
> [1] Fortress stays in Avalon with maintenance
> [2] Fortress moves to incubator for TLP
> [3] Fortress moves to D-Haven
> [4] Fortress moves to XXX (enter your choice here)
> [-1] Fortress is nuked and users forced to migrate

I have been very bad about finding time to contribute much lately.  But 
Fortress is
an integral part of several projects that I use at a number of customer 
sites as well
as for in house projects.   At this point it is a great light weight 
container that does
everything I need.

It sounds like there are some issues with getting it "stable" build-wise 
again.  But
at one point it had been quite stable and any issues must have come from 
the move
from Ant to Maven??

In my experience, Fortress appears to be a very stable option.   The 
fact that many
of those who have been involved in ECM, Fortress, Phoenix development 
have left
for a number of reasons is a great shame.   And given that the remaining 
members have been concentrating on Merlin, I can understand the desire 
to move
in that direction.  But to our users, Avalon is a tool that is used to 
to make the projects
that they are interested in developing possible.  We need to provide a 
consistent API
and a reliable future if we expect those users to stick around.

If Merlin does not fit on top of the contracts that we have released in 
the past.  And I
mean that components can be used as is without any modification of their 
code.  Then
I think we are doing a disservice to our user base.

I have not spent much time with Merlin, but from all of the posts it 
sounds like a move
from Fortress to Merlin would be far from trivial.   My applications all 
consist of a
bootstrap main which starts Fortress.   Fortress is then in charge of 
running all of the
components.  I make heavy use of the lookup("role/hint") syntax, which 
does not
appear to be supported by Merlin.   If I could swap out Fortress for 
Merlin and have
all of my components just work.   Then I would have complaints.  But as 
is Fortress
is the only thing that can be used without investing lots of time 
upgrading a large number
of components to work with either scheme.   They would have to work with 
both as
it is not feasible to upgrade every single app that makes use of my core 

I would like to see Fortress stay around in a form that can be modified 
if any
problems are encountered.   I don't like the option of a final snapshot 
of the code
at all as that would effectively mean that I would have to start my own CVS
repository to track all of the future changes myself.  :-P   That would 
be foolish
as other users would be having to do the same thing...

To our users, Avalon is ECM, Phoenix and to a lesser degree Fortress.   
If Merlin
is branching from that then it makes more sense to branch Merlin off on 
its own than
to kill the existing Avalon APIs....

Having a merlin.apache.org along side avalon.apache.org would also 
remove a lot of
the tension that have been in this project over the last year or two.  
By doing so,
hopefully some of the original committers would come back and both 
groups could
go on their happy way.   Am I dreaming?

I would really love to get more involved again.  But frankly every time 
I try it seems
like a majority of the messages are bickering and I just don't have the 
energy for it.
Avalon goes on the back burner for a couple more months until I decide 
to try reading
posts again...   There appears to be two clearly defined groups in 
Avalon.  Sad as it
may be,  it may be time for a break up.  It seems like that would be 
best for our users,
and best for everyone who simply wants to get to work.  I can't imagine 
that anyone
really enjoys all of this bickering.


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