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From "Leo Sutic" <leo.su...@inspireinfrastructure.com>
Subject RE: Under Merlin's hood
Date Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:54:55 GMT

> From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:mcconnell@apache.org] 
> > Thats the point: for a very particullar audience who wants to feel
> > using a J2EE like container.
> I don't see things in the same light as you do.  But let get 
> down the real point your raising.  Your depicting Merlin as a 
> J2EE platform. That in my opinion way off the mark because 
> the Merlin development (and the opinions of the people 
> contributing to merlin) go well beyond that reference point - 
> something much better, much cleaner, a complete quality IOC 
> component and service management solution.

Whether it is J2EE or not - this is the problem: I don't have
the same goal. Rather, this is my goal:

 + I want a little container that I can start with:
         MyContainer myContainer = new MyContainer ();

 + give it a logger with:
         myContainer.enableLogging (logger);
         myContainer.addAspect(new AvalonLogging (logger));

 + configure with:
         myContainer.configure (config);
 + or with:
         ComponentHandler handler = new
A4ComponentHandler(SomeClass.class, ...);

I don't want classloader management, command queues, 
async-whatever, logkit configuration, repositories...

The thing with Merlin is that all that comes not only built-in,
but inseparable. And it appears like we're only getting more.
I'd start off by throwing out the model in Merlin. We need
something simpler to start with. Maybe then we can add:

    myContainer.addAspect(new DependencyValidation());

(Point here is that you can use the container with or
without validation. You don't have to understand validation
if you don't want it. If you *do* want to validate dependencies,
you must understand how to do it, but that's something you
can study in isolation from all other aspects.)

You talk about everyone influencing, evolving, etc. But what
if I start to evolve and influence in a direction that is
different from your goal?

Will we compromise? Get some half-assed neither-here-nor-there 
nightmare? Is this your answer to that?:

> This is not about "which container" - that's a done deal.  
> This is about accepting that its a done deal.  The sooner 
> we get past this point the better it will be for you, me, 
> and everyone else.

To drive this to the absurd limit - are you willing to start
with a clean slate? Throw away Merlin, and build something
new (where you can get bits and pieces from Merlin implemented)?

I'm not saying that this is even a workable solution, but *I
do want to know just how attached to Merlin you are.* Because
it really influences the ability of others to, well, influence 
and evolve.

If it is "take it or leave it", then I'm not that inclined
to pitch in.

If it is a "look, I've come across a lot of problems building 
Merlin, I have solved them. I don't want to throw away
all that knowledge, and that's why I'm conservative. But I'd
throw away my solutions in an instant if better solutions
appeared" then I'm more up for it.

It's just that statements such as the one above doesn't really
read that way for me. Makes me wonder if I'm just free to
influence and evolve as long as I influence and evolve
the way you want me to.

> the other Leo simply hates the names I give things.

The thing is this: I don't hate the names you give to things.
I hate the fact that so many names are needed. It makes me
think that there's something fundamentally wrong with the
system, since you need to understand so many concepts.

That's not "simply hating the names". Why this complexity?
Why are all those concepts one big ball of strings? If it
were eight concepts that I could have a go at in isolation
I'd be fine. But you have eight concepts that must be
grasped *at once*. That's *too much.*

You've described the difference as the difference between 
cowboys and city-guys. Make no mistake, the cowboys have been
at it as well. While you city guys are sketching out the
plans for the most model-mathematically correct layout of your 
downtown N.Y., we've already reached the Pacific and are building
million-inhabitant cities every day.

No, those cities aren't what *you'd* call perfect, but the quality
of living is great, they evolve much faster and *will* overtake 
you. It's just a matter of time.

So come on city boy! Get some dirt on that suit of yours.

We'll build a Stetson-shaped container.


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