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From Leo Simons <leosim...@apache.org>
Subject [B&M] Simplification (was: [RT] Simplification)
Date Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:42:09 GMT
Berin Loritsch wrote:
<snip/<
> Right.  Well I'm not trying to open up a can of worms.

of course! What I often do try and do in public e-mail is provide 
context that you are aware of, but most of our 'readership' probably 
isn't :D

 > Reconfiguration
 > ===============
> In a development environment, sometimes it is helpful to "play" with
> the values to see how it affects the overall performance and weight
 > of the system.

again: indeed! What I'd love to see would be an IDE with a debugger 
which you can pause, allows you to change any value in the system, then 
resume. I seem to remember some smalltalk tool that had that capability 
a long way back. Pipe dream of course; but that's the general thing 
we're getting at here, innit?

Since this is a RT...have you any thoughts about how to make that 
happen? The closest thing I know is an embedded BeanShell console 
listening to telnet, and that's not really optimal.

>>> The impetus behind scripted configuration seems to be administrator 
>>> simplicity, or something along those lines.
>>
>> my argument was that scripted configuration simplifies container 
>> implementation, administration *and* component development.
> 
> Essentially it moves some of the logic elsewhere.  I would still need to
> see if it "feels" right.  Such an implementation would need to be 
> completely sandboxed so that only certain methods are allowed to be
 > called--even when the thing is signed.

yep. I don't think you should run any kind of script that is in any way 
untrusted. And, of course, it might be a wise decision (as a programmer) 
to not trust the administrator (for lack of knowledge). Security is the 
big issue (performance could be another).

>>> So what could be done in a nice generic way?
>>
>> I still believe in a command pattern, where you can have a container 
>> issue commands based on a configuration being parsed, or a remote 
>> admin interface based on buttons being pressed, or from a script file 
>> bundled with a jar. Have you looked at Twiddle (inside geronimo)?
> 
> I haven't had a chance to.

I believe they started it as a basic tool to which the results of the 
CLI parsing were sent. Its quickly evolving into a lightweight command 
framework which sends (I think) JMX messages. Not tracking it closely. 
Some basic info is at

http://wiki.codehaus.org/geronimo/Twiddle

>> phoenix has had mbean generation for ages.
> 
> Right.  I think it would be benificial to port that over to Merlin.

Steve's on it I believe :D

I've thought about it a little, and with merlin, because things are more 
dynamic (phoenix, remember, just has basic threadsafe, usually 
'singleton-style' blocks, whereas with merlin the sky's no limit), it 
might be a lot less straightforward.

>> Me, I'm just ranting as I go along. I'm not going to commit to 
>> implementing any of it, let alone do I have 'users' paying me enough 
>> to motivate me into seeing such an effort through :P
> 
> Hmmm.  Maybe we should introduce a new header tag.  Instead of [RT] for
> Random Thought, how about [B&M] for Bitch and Moan...  ;P
> 
> So it isn't enough of a scratch to itch... that's ok, but I still want to
> see some simplification, but I am not sure how to move it forward yet.

Let me phrase a little more positively: I am scratching some of these 
itches, but there's a difference (IMO) between hacking some stuff 
together overnight and putting it on sourceforge vs bringing it into 
avalon (including making it actually play nice with existing avalon stuff).

It'd be irresponsible to just dump some code here no-one really wants 
nor needs and which also isn't quite (quite not) up to standard. And 
bringing it in here seems to me entails at least not changing my mind 
about it more than twice a day. Which I'm not capable of yet :D

I am sure that avalon needs to simplify drastically, but I'm not that 
sure how (can't even pinpoint the "why" yet), nor do I believe we're 
remotely close to establishing a consensus that that assertion is true. 
So yeah, I'm just bitchin' :D

back to my corner!

- LSD



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