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From "Leo Sutic" <leo.su...@inspireinfrastructure.com>
Subject RE: Fractures of this community
Date Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:17:45 GMT

> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:niclas@hedhman.org] 
> Hi all,
> being mostly a listener, I need to vent my feelings about the 
> recent events here in Avalonland.
> First of all,
> If you think everyone in the world is wrong, then it is 
> probably yourself that needs to change.
> I say that in respect to the current debate-makers, who IMVHO 
> are more concerned about hammering out and drive out their 
> own opinion, than to listen to good ideas.

In short, there's the problem as I see it: "more concerned about 
hammering out and drive out their own opinion, than to listen to 
good ideas."

No community can grow from that.

Avalon is just plainly *no* *fun* anymore. Not because of a lack of
a container, which I largely see as a cathedral-building exercize - it
keeps people active, but the goal is largely irrellevant compared to
the community effect. It is extremely unfunny because there's no
exchange of ideas anymore. I'm not learning anything anymore here.
There's no discussion going on, only a lot of re-iterations of
the person's existing position. The willingness to let their
views be modified has never been great, but over all I'm seeing a
new pattern emerge in Avalon: Don't ever give an inch. Just keep
re-iterating your current position, throw in a few accusations,
and away you go.

If this isn't going to be any exchange of ideas, if we will
degenerate to a group that only can ever agree on A-F as it is
now (because any attempt to evolve it would of course go like
the attempts to evolve something else), then what's the point
of Avalon?

> 1. A new PMC Chair. There are plenty of reasonable and able 
>    candidates.

No, Berin is doing as good a job as anyone else would be able to.
Frankly, the requirement for Avalon chair would be the ability to
modify people's personalities.

The question isn't "who have reasonable views and opinions", but
"who can actually implement those?". The former, I'd say everyone.
The latter, none. You know, if you look through Israel and the PA,
you'll find many many people who, if their ideas were implemented,
would lead to a *good* peace. But try actually doing that 

I'll be sporadically checking the list for the next two weeks. Seems
like vacation time has finally reached me.


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