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From Leo Simons <leosim...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [RT] Commons is not a Dumping Ground
Date Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:33:35 GMT
good overview, good points, good compromise, one caveat, additional 
comments.

I would add that it is not a *requirement* that we only use utility code 
which is developed at apache. For example, qdox, xdoclet, isorelax, 
spice-jndikit.

It is just the goal that generic utility code developed by avaloners is 
developed/nurtured in an appropriate place at apache (note the use of 
the fact that avaloner --extends--> apache person). What is an 
appropriate place depends on the (expected) size and scope of the 
project. Appropriate places may indeed include jakarta-commmons-sandbox, 
incubator (which is where altrmi went), and I would assume in the future 
also commons.apache.org will become a nice place to work on code.

For really small pieces of utility code (stuff like excalibur-i18n, 
which is just two classes), I think it is also okay if this lives as 
part of some other package, for example, it is not neccessarily bad if 
it were a part of phoenix. Any package has some "utility code", and it 
is not always a requirement to seperate it out.

Leo Sutic wrote:
>  + We would still have access to the code (which we don't
>    have if we just give it to a Commons project, unless
>    we're Commons committers).

the big caveat: this is not always neccessarily true. People who are 
avalon committers but not jakarta committers have no access. The 
downside of us becoming toplevel is that it is no longer true avalon 
committter --extends--> jakarta committer. Hmm. In a sense spice is in 
fact more open from the view of the avalon committer base as Peter has 
said anyone who wants access will get it. Biting the bullet and ducking 
at the same time: Pete was suspended from all ASF projects, and I don't 
think he was reinstated as a jakarta committer. In a sense, moving 
things to jakarta commons will enable just about any avalon committer 
but Pete to work on things. Icky issue. Maybe we can get the jakarta 
people to extend "any jakarta committer" to be "any apache committer" 
and open up their sandbox further.

The downside with projects like spice or codehaus is that it is not 
crystal clear how decisions are reached there, so it is not clear what 
the relationship between "access" and "influence" is. IOW, what happens 
if I move extension to spice, and a spice developer makes a change there 
which is incompatible with merlin's needs for the package? Avalon is 
giving up control over things when moving them out of avalon. Moving 
things out to another apache project still answers these kinds of 
questions (we all know how decisions are reached at apache and how to 
behave according to the general asf structure, and that this process is 
compatible with our own), moving things out to a nonapache project 
raises the extra question mark.

>  + No "dumping" of code.
> 
>  + We can use the package name org.apache.commons.*, so
>    binary and source compatibility is *right* from the 
>    start.

big pluses.

There is perhaps also the desire to keep what is essentially good code 
owned by the ASF in a place where it is developed by the ASF. Apache is 
one of the highest-exposure places for a piece of code, for good reason, 
and we might want to extend that benefit to code. This is one of the 
reasons for example why I would rather see altrmi.apache.org than 
altrmi.sourceforge.org: it is ASF code developed by ASF people in an ASF 
manner under the ASF license.

I've made matters more complex again, haven't I? ;)

- Leo



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