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From Stephen McConnell <mcconn...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] lifecycle release
Date Fri, 14 Mar 2003 21:54:58 GMT

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> Stephen McConnell wrote:
>> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>>> On Friday 14 March 2003 20:02, Peter Donald wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:10, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>>>> This is the problem and Peter appears to be the only one *really*
>>>>> watching over what's going on in this project. Probably because he's
>>>>> doing some sneaky moves himself so he's more sensible about them.
>>>> Please don't. I have been fairly open about what I am going to be 
>>>> doing
>>>> over next bit.
>>>> I am moving all the code out that I am sole author for. I am 
>>>> encouraging
>>>> others to do the same - I hope within a few months that most of 
>>>> avalon-apps
>>>> will be gone and significant portions of excalibur will also be 
>>>> gone. Paul
>>>> has already moved some stuff out, as has Eung-Ju and I. I have been 
>>>> poking
>>>> the other Peter to do the same.
>>>> In time I will start poking some of the Cocoon peeps to migrate 
>>>> some of the
>>>> Cocoon originated stuff back into Cocoon - much better for Cocoon 
>>>> that way
>>>> and hopefully better for Avalon.
>>>> Post fortress release I intend to attempt to get framework cleaned up;
>>>> marker interfaces, component.*, *Selectors deprecated. Provide a solid
>>>> ECM-> fortress migration path and finally start process of dumping the
>>>> crappy code we have been carrying for ages.
>>>> At the same time I have consolidating Phoenix. Basically means 
>>>> getting unit
>>>> tests solid and trying to get 95% test coverage on all the supporting
>>>> libraries. I also plan to make it more agile by reducing dependencies,
>>>> reducing duplication, internal decoupling and so forth.
>>>> In the end I want to see the majority of cornerstone/excalibur/apps 
>>>> gone.
>>>> Framework to be half deprecated, docs to be decrufted. Hows that for
>>>> sneaky?
>>> Hooahh, and how much of that will affect me, just starting to 
>>> migrate my "legacy" application to Avalon-Phoenix?? Not at all? A 
>>> little bit?
>> Please note that the comments express by Peter Donald should in no 
>> way be considered as a position of this community or in any way 
>> reflective of the community consensus. 
> I think everybody around apache knows that and Niclas has been around 
> for enough time to know this very well. 

Please excuse my ignorance.  I have not had the opportunity of meeting 
Niclas Hedhman on-line or off.  From his comments it was apparent to me 
that he considered the comments and opinions as expressed by Peter 
Donald's as in some way or form an indication of the community opinion.  
My response was provided with the objective of reassuring Niclas Hedhman 
that the Avalon Community has not taken any such decision.  I would like 
to reassert the point that the opinions stated by Peter Donald are his 
own and should not be interpreted in any way or form as a reflection of 
the opinions of the Avalon Community at this time.

>> Irrespective of the actions of Peter Donald within or external to the 
>> Avalon Community, concrete and viable solutions exist today to 
>> protect any investment you make into the development of Phoenix 
>> components.  However, from a pragmatic development perspective, I 
>> would strongly recommend that you do not use interfaces or classes 
>> under the phoenix namespace - which simply means that you are 
>> building a portable component.  For more information concerning the 
>> development of a code base that is container independent - you can 
>> email requests to either the user or dev list.  For an example of a 
>> complex Phoenix style application that is maintaining container 
>> independence please take a look at the James project.
> Can we stop throwing FUD and get back to work together?

You prior email referred to the Avalon Lifecycle project as a "hack".  
This email refers to real and pragmatic suggestions concerning the use 
and development of components related to Phoenix as FUD.  I'm assuming 
your "hack" remark was made with the same degree of indifference to the 
subject as the message from Peter Donald.  Should I assume your FUD 
remark is made is the same vain or should I assume that you have 
something more substantive to put forward?

Lets' focus on the important aspects.  There is in my personal 
perception - some degree on instability related to the Phoenix project.  
I (personally and as a community member) do not consider this as a 
problem on the grounds that (a) there are several members of the Phoenix 
community that are capable of maintaining the product, and (b) 
components developer for Phoenix can be deployed today in non-Phoenix 
containers.  I.e. in the worst case scenario there is a viable solution 
for the user community. 

> Sheesh. 

No familiar with that particular word.


> if there is something wrong with Phoenix, what stops you from going 
> there and fix it instead of whining or even propose your own version 
> of it? 

Sorry - but where exactly am I whining about Phoenix? I am only 
presenting those actions that I happen to consider as the most 
appropriate for any developer using the Phoenix product.  Based on the 
comments from Peter Donald, he is clearly and without community 
consultation undermining the decisions of the same community.  Peter 
Donald has the right to do this - however, as a member of this 
community, I am concerned about the interests of users of the Avalon 
technologies.  In particular up on the top-seven of my concerns are the 
users of the Phoenix application.  The community surrounding this 
application are demonstrating a very clear silence with respect to the 
technical direction of the project with the single exception of Peter 
Donald.  In that particular case, Peter Donald is choosing to undermine 
community interests in favor of his own.  Naturally, while I don't 
endorse this actions - I am concerned with the impact of his actions on 
the greater Avalon Community.

Cheers, Steve.


Stephen J. McConnell

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