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From Nicola Ken Barozzi <nicola...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Regarding Phoenix, and my book
Date Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:53:22 GMT

Berin Loritsch wrote:
> All this turmoil and change couldn't be coming at a worse time.  I am still
> working on my book (I know it is horribly past due).  However with all the talk
> about scrapping old code and working one "One container to rule them.  One container
to find
> them, and in the darkness bind them." (with appologies to J.R.R. Tolkien), we are
> now rendering a project in work obsolete before it is done.

I never saw anything about scraping stuff, but about building something 
new. The important thing is what we create, not what we destroy.

> The thing is that both Framework and Phoenix are released code.  Both of
> them have consumers and users.  I am _really_ glad we have a users list or we
> would be scaring off what few we have right now.  What are we going to say to
> those projects that depend on Phoenix, or those of us who managed to convince
> their superiors to use the released and ready Phoenix?

Tha Phoenix is not going anywhere.
That we are working on a new generation.
That we will make an easy and painless upgrade path when we are ready.

> The bottom line is this:
> * Phoenix is too big to be a reference implementation, so under Stefano's
>   "Cooperate or else" proposal we would have to move Phoenix somewhere else.

Not necessarily with the tiered approach.

> * Phoenix is released code and needs to be supported.  The question is
> where.


> * There are a few developers who do the bulk of the work, but I can't give
> you   absolute statistics as to the size of its community.  I have the
> impression that  the developer community is not large at all.

If it's just to provide support and bigfixes, it's more than ok, given 
the dedication and work they pour into it.

> * If Phoenix has to move outside of Avalon, then I can host it in one of my
>   D-Haven.org projects at sourceforge.  I consider this the last resort, and
>   I really don't want to see it happen--but if it means that Phoenix lives
>  on, all I have to do is point the readers of my book to the new resting place.

I'm strongly against Phoenix leaving. Phoenix is not a threat, it's an 
asset. Phoenix is code, our problem is in the community.

> The question is what is best for the community?  We need to decide quickly,
> because I have deadlines I am already past and all this uncertainty is only
> serving to delay me further.  We need to be clear about our intentions regarding
> Phoenix at this point.  If Phoenix will no longer exist as part of the "new
> Avalon", then It is welcome with my external projects.  If Phoenix has guarantees
> that it will be supported while the work on the "supercontainer" continues then we
> can leave it here.

I don't see why we cannot support something that we made.
Rephrasing: we *must* support our products.

> My intentions are not to be devisive, but I have real needs that are met by
> the existing code.  All I want is guarantees from the community that Phoenix
> is continued to be supported while the "supercontainer" is still vaporware.
> When the supercontainer is finished, we can decide what to do at that point.

And the new container can become the new Phoenix, as it will be the new 
Fortress and the new Merlin.

Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

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