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From Nicola Ken Barozzi <nicola...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Breaking up Avalon
Date Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:02:21 GMT

Peter Donald wrote:
[...]
> And then theres Nicolas claims that "Phoenix community != Avalon community, 
> it's quite clear to all" and that combined with his vision and discussion
> that involved removing my commit privs if I did not agree with the vision was 
> somewhat disturbing.

:-/

I have been trying at my best, as small as it is, to help in this 
process, by trying also to follow indication from people like Greg Stein 
that were posted here on the list.

I have also tried to keep a dialog open with you and Stephen, and to 
understand all needs.

Since you mention it, and give it the opposite connotation that I'd 
given it, here are the mails I sent you regarding these specific comments.

I have also recieved previous mails from you that clearly explain that 
some development at Avalon has been going on in "private" lists. No 
wonder some committers and I couldn't understand what was going on.

I have kept some Apache and board members informed of my actions at all 
times, and I have nothing to hide.

Let everyone judge by himself.

There are many other mails you sent me, but these are the only ones you 
cite.

If anyone has anything to ask you about or me about these, please do it 
here, on the public list.

*I also inform you all that I will forward all mails I get from now on 
from Avalon committers to this list.*


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Info Design
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:42:34 +0100
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi <nicolaken@apache.org>
Reply-To: nicolaken@apache.org
Organization: Apache Software Foundation
To: Peter Donald <peter@apache.org>
References: <200211131517.05531.peter@apache.org> 
<200211131949.05161.peter@apache.org> <3DD2213B.5000809@apache.org> 
<200211132120.03982.peter@apache.org>


Peter Donald wrote:
 > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:54, you wrote:
 >
 >>Phoenix community != Avalon community, it's quite clear to all.
 >
 > Not clear at all. I would think you would be least likely to
 > try and divide the Avalon community that way.

I'm stating what many believe is a fact, not a tentative to divide.
I will not do it further.

Below I'll reply to your points with a mail from Greg Stein.

You are disregarding the fact that design should restart with consensus
now, not majority votes.

 >>I would humbly propose you this line of action:
 >>
 >>1) wait for the creation of the PMC
 >>2) in the meantime continue on info and do whatever you need to in 
Phoenix
 >>3) with the new PMC we discuss about using info as the proposal for an
 >>info package in framework, with *technical* discussions on it and
 >>consensus. It's not rocket science, it will be possible.
 >>4) we have info in framework and you can switch Phoenix to it
 >>
 >>Reasonable?
 >
 >
 > nope. The PMC is not meant to deal with technical issues. Thus it 
should make
 > no difference. Chances However given that some want to ignore this 
and thus
 > the whole point is to go ahead before the PMC is formed so that no
 > blocks are put in place.

Greg Stein wrote:
"
The question for the new PMC to answer is: how do we start over to
create a design thatis community driven?
"

 > If you want to block it then you are welcome to do so when (if it) it 
goes up
 > for vote.

Greg Stein wrote:
"
I think it was Costin that said it best: vetoes shouldn't be used to
steer the design. This is why I suggested (as Steve mentioned above)
that the Avalon project start over. As a community, decide what the heck
Avalon is and get it assembled. Either from old parts, or newly
developed parts. But ignore the design from the past and come up with an
"Avalon 2".
"

 > It needs a majority to get accepted and if that can't be achieved
 > then component model be forever more sundered. At least a few 
containers will
 > be compatible with info and the majority of Avalon components. It 
would be
 > preferrable that all of them be compatible but if that can't be done 
then so
 > be it.

Greg Stein wrote:
"
I would also recommend that the PMC disallow forks or "revolutions." Get
the community to work together, rather than individually. If somebody is
peeved enough at the community's direction, they can put their fork in
other parts of the ASF or outside the ASF. But don't allow internal
forks until you've at least got one release behind you. This notion of
personal playgrounds and forks and whatnot has been part of the "avalon
problem".
"


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Info Design
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:59:20 +0100
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi <nicolaken@apache.org>
Reply-To: nicolaken@apache.org
To: Peter Donald <peter@apache.org>
References: <200211131517.05531.peter@apache.org> 
<200211141836.48380.peter@apache.org> <3DD35446.1060902@apache.org> 
<200211150137.10974.peter@apache.org>

Peter Donald wrote:
 >>> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
 >>>
 >>>> I want to start with a clean slate with the help of the oversight
 >>>> of the board. If anyone will behave badly, he will be kicked out.
 >>>> But if we don't communicate openly on these things now, I don't
 >>>> see what the solution will be.

[...]

 > If you don't retract your acceptance I intend to send an email to
 > both the  avalon group and the board outlining what I believe
 > is going on and why it is not in the best interests of Avalon
 > to rush through the proposal.

I will not retract my acceptance, and I suggest you to stop this behaviour.

This is the second mail you send me about "suggesting" me to retract,
while I've recieved votes from Avalon commiters on the Avalon mailing
list that had not even been requested. If you have something else to
say, we are all listening on the Avalon mailing lists.

I suggest you to restart partecipating in Avalon on the Apache mailing
lists rather than forking the community on private mails, and make all
other Avalon committers aware of these private Avalon development threads.

If anyone, and that means you too, will not follow the rules and
continue pursuing this behaviour as usual business, he could have his
committer privileges revoked.


-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------


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