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From Leif Mortenson <l...@tanukisoftware.com>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] formation of an Avalon PMC
Date Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:22:02 GMT
Leo Simons wrote:

>hmmm. I believe the board chose to get involved based on comments
>regarding avalon that were made on other mailing lists. Not so sure.
>Greg Stein's post:
Ok, I agree with what Greg said. But he emphasized the need to avoid
branching and
to make a goal of the PMC be getting the team to start working together
with the
common goal of a release. He even suggested merging all of the various CVS
repositories back together to "help to create that 'single community'
The talk now is of branching Phoenix off into a separate Committer group
all together.
I don't see how that would really solve the problems however as Phoenix
is built
on top of Avalon. If there were any incompatible changes made to Avalon
that would
affect Phoenix. Phoenix members would therefor still have to be heavily
in Avalon.

>>I will not claim to have had read every single one of the posts on this
>>subject over the
>>past few weeks. But the general idea of stricter rules = more harmony =
>>better product
>>is false.
>agreed. The proposal on the table here is not about stricter rules or
>more harmony or better products. There's a lot of stuff it is not about,
>I won't repeat all my thoughts on this; I have attempted a summary here:
Ok, I had only made it part way into that mail before being called off
to a meeting. Sorry.
It would have been nice to have had a summary of what was being voted on
posted with
the vote request. Most of the PMC threads either came from feudal
threads or turned
into one.

All in all I agree with what you said in the above post. It sounds like
the PMC would
in theory enable the new Avalon board to steer the direction of the
project as a whole.
But my question is how will that be any different from now. The same
members who
are fighting about those directions are all on the new PMC board (as
they should be)
I agree with the need to clean things up and refocus the goals of
Avalon. But that can
be done now.

If the goal of the PMC is to allow us to create an avolon.apache.org
domain and become
a top level project. Then as Greg said, a PMC is not necessary to do that.

>You can see the proposal on the table as falling down into two bits:
>- Setting up an Avalon PMC. This is mostly about stuff like legal
>responsibility and protection, apache wide reorganization, etc.
Do we need protection that is different that what the current Apache

>- modifying the scope of the Avalon project. I think my earlier e-mail
>on this on November 10th outlines how the proposal wording could be
>interpreted regarding a modified scope:
>The reason this scope modification is part of the proposal is that a
>resolution for a top level project to handle all of avalon its current
>(de-facto) scope is probably not so smart (it seems just about everyone
>doesn't like the current de-facto avalon scope).
In this message you start by saying that the vote should be pushed back
a month.
That would have been good to gain a consensus amongst all of the committers.
Overall I agree now that creating a PMC would be a good idea. But I am
more than
a little worried at the pace at which is being pushed forward amidst all
of the
problems that are going on right now.

>your vote is a valid vote on a proposal that needs majority approval. I
>think it is very desirable to have consensus approval rather than just
>majority, so your vote is very important to me. This e-mail is to
>outline why I have voted +1 on the Avalon PMC proposal while further
>agreeing to just about everything you say in this e-mail.
After reading up on what your goals are with the PMC. I am closer to a
+0 now. But
I would still like to see all involved slow down a bit. I have not seen
comments from Peter or Berin on this yet. And it seems like they should
be agreeing
before this was made final.
As for Peter and Berin wanting to be on the board of the PMC, that doesn't
necessarily mean that they agree with it. They would just need to be,
and certainly
have every right to be there when and if it is formed.

>According to the time schedule set your vote is not currently part of
>the proposal sent to the board. I think they'll read and take it into
>account anyway; you might wish to e-mail the board directly to make
Understood, but the vote count is only 8 committers (Peter Royal had not
That seems way to low to be telling the board that there was consensus
on the Avalon
team for the creation of the PMC.


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