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From "Paulo Gaspar" <paulo.gas...@krankikom.de>
Subject RE: What is Avalon?
Date Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:23:06 GMT
Sorry Ken...


...but this time it sounds like you don't know what you are talking 
about. (Well, at least it is just an exception to the rule.)


> *This* is the point.
> If Avalon's was so good why did they rewrite it?

See the archives. The motivation was NOT technical and they had to 
relearn everything that was already on the Avalon stuff. There was
someone explicitly stating that he would not touch anything with
Peter's (Donald) name on it - he didn't even look at it.

But before he explicitly stated this (after my insistence on the 
subject) he was basically misleading people by implying that the 
Avalon stuff was just not good enough.

Craig had no trouble picking code from Avalon for the JDK 1.4 logger
wrapper, but many others just refused to look at it.


> The ego stuff goes two ways ;-)

That is no excuse. I still read code from people with ego's I dislike
and I still take what they say at face value.

Hey, Peter Donald (on the top of most anti-Avalon black lists) is not 
kissing me all the time either (thank God) but I am still learning a 
lot from him / his code. (*)

Since I have no especially good ego (hey, I come from a typical latin
ego-driven culture) I must assume that anyone could do the same.


I even think they should, for their own and the common good. I really
think this Tomcat incident was another "I don't have a clue about what
Avalon is but I don't like it anyway because their guys are not nice 
enough to me". 

This kind of recurring incident SUCKS big time, is misleading and 
should be exposed as an attitude problem of its author instead of just
being shy about it and assuming it might be Avalon's fault.


This is NOT "just an Avalon problem".

Apache is no Miss Universe contest. Our focus should be to cooperate 
into building great stuff and the engineering skills to do it should 
be the main requisite - instead of the ability to be Mister Nice and 
say sweet things all the time.


Have fun,
Paulo

(*) I even learn some stuff from Jon from time to time.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:18 AM
> To: Avalon Developers List
> Subject: Re: What is Avalon?
> 
> 
> 
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >>>That's also why many outsiders say: "Hey, we have commons-logging, 
> >>>JNDI, JMX, why do you want to rewrite all?". 
> >>
> > 
> > Bad example.
> 
> Bzzzz wrong. It's a good example.
> 
> That *exactly what users from the *outside* of Jakarta say.
> 
> > The commons-logging guys were the ones rewriting the 
> > Avalon stuff. They might have started earlier, but by December the
> > Avalon logging stuff was MUCH more advanced and smoe of them just
> > refused to look at it.
> 
> *This* is the point.
> If Avalon's was so good why did they rewrite it?
> 
> > What Pete says about the ego bits is the major problem. Most of the
> > commons and Tomcat guys complaining did not even care to know what 
> > they are talking about.
> 
> The ego stuff goes two ways ;-)
> 
> -- 
> Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
>              - verba volant, scripta manent -
>     (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
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