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From Nicola Ken Barozzi <nicola...@apache.org>
Subject Re: What is Avalon?
Date Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:43:56 GMT
Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> Sorry Ken...
> ...but this time it sounds like you don't know what you are talking 
> about. (Well, at least it is just an exception to the rule.)

;-)  Then it's mostly a compliment :-)

>>*This* is the point.
>>If Avalon's was so good why did they rewrite it?
> See the archives. The motivation was NOT technical and they had to 
> relearn everything that was already on the Avalon stuff. There was
> someone explicitly stating that he would not touch anything with
> Peter's (Donald) name on it - he didn't even look at it.
> But before he explicitly stated this (after my insistence on the 
> subject) he was basically misleading people by implying that the 
> Avalon stuff was just not good enough.
> Craig had no trouble picking code from Avalon for the JDK 1.4 logger
> wrapper, but many others just refused to look at it.

I know, this is why I wrote that sentence.

the complete snippet is:
 > The commons-logging guys were the ones rewriting the Avalon stuff.
 > They might have started earlier, but by December the
 > Avalon logging stuff was MUCH more advanced and smoe of them
 > just refused to look at
 >>*This* is the point.
 >>If Avalon's was so good why did they rewrite it?

Reply: Because they didn't even look at it.

All I say gets interpreted here as "Avalon code sucks", but that's not 
true, nor what I want to say.

I mean "communication of the wonders of Avalon sucks".
It's a communication problem.
Not documentation, as some imply, but communication.

>>The ego stuff goes two ways ;-)
> That is no excuse. I still read code from people with ego's I dislike
> and I still take what they say at face value.
> Hey, Peter Donald (on the top of most anti-Avalon black lists) is not 
> kissing me all the time either (thank God) but I am still learning a 
> lot from him / his code. (*)
> Since I have no especially good ego (hey, I come from a typical latin
> ego-driven culture) I must assume that anyone could do the same.

You'd be impressed to know that the vast majority of the people in the 
world don't want to recieve suggestions.

Before giving a suggestion to someone that didn't ask you for it, try 
asking if he really would like to recieve it. You'll see that it's 
general human nature not to want any.

> I even think they should, for their own and the common good. I really
> think this Tomcat incident was another "I don't have a clue about what
> Avalon is but I don't like it anyway because their guys are not nice 
> enough to me". 

Wrong IMHO.
I don't like it anyway because I don't understand it and I can't stand 
to show all that I don't.

Being nice is not how to sell things.
Giving solutions to the needs is.

That's why I like the reorganization we are doing in Avalon, because it 
makes it a more clear and easy solution, even for first-time users.

> This kind of recurring incident SUCKS big time, is misleading and 
> should be exposed as an attitude problem of its author instead of just
> being shy about it and assuming it might be Avalon's fault.

When you fail to sell something, you can never complain that the buyer 
sucks. It's just your fault.

> This is NOT "just an Avalon problem".
> Apache is no Miss Universe contest. Our focus should be to cooperate 
> into building great stuff and the engineering skills to do it should 
> be the main requisite - instead of the ability to be Mister Nice and 
> say sweet things all the time.

Listen, I work in a firm with 50 people, and often use external 
workforce till 100.
We sell all over the world doing industrial automation, and guess what, 
communication is important.

If you have a wonderful product and can't sell it, you loose. Simple as 

Even if you customers are assholes that buy your basic machine, adapt it 
in-house, and say you product sucks.

Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

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