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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Summary] Avalon 5 ComponentManager interface
Date Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:08:50 GMT
Leo Sutic wrote:
> 
> > From: Leo Simons [mailto:leosimons@apache.org]
> >
> > > Leo Sutic wrote:
> > > > Carsten,
> > > >
> > > > you are right - everything gets a little bit more complicated.
> > > >
> > > Yes, and this is the thing that worries me - I know a lot of people
> > > saying "Avalon is too complicated" and this makes it even a
> > little bit
> > > more complicated,
> >
> > hmm. Is it more complicated?
> 
> As Vadim said in a comparison of Cocoon and Struts: Cocoon developers
> come from the "pattern hell" school of thought. (That was a point
> against Cocoon, if anyone missed it.)
> 
> Worth thinking about, as I have seen some people here accusing
> Cocoon of not following patterns cleanly enough.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I think we scare the shit out of most people
> with the complexity of the framework already. Patterns within
> patterns... It is not whether there are patterns or not - it is
> the fact that you have patterns of patterns, and you must somehow
> grasp them all.
> 
> So I completely understand Carsten. We will lose users. I see
> before me someone saying "F*** it. (1) They are obviously not committed
> to API stability, (2) just about when we've finally learned to use
> the framework (given how complex it is that may be a while), the next
> change will come along, (3) the cost of maintenance and keeping up
> with that will kill us. Let's roll our own framework."
> 
> If it is more complicated or not does not matter - what matters is
> what it is *percieved* as.
> 
> For all its faults, A4 is *easy* to *use*. (Although I confess I never
> ever understood the RoleManager.)

Everytime you make a new generation of a project you are actually
forking the community without knowing.

So, either you are able to attract users and developers to the new
generation, or you are actually creating a new project: A4 and A5 which
just look like different highways going in different directions (in
italy we name highways with the A* pattern)

I first did this when I started JServ 1.0.x vs JServ 0.9.x, then I did
it with Cocoon 1.x vs Cocoon 2.x... I'm *NOT* going to do it again. It's
too painful, too risky and too expensive in time and energy for me and
for the community in general.

I understand that you can't patch A4 without breaking compatibility.

But *please* make all efforts to make A5 *easier* to learn, to use and
to appreciate than A4 or you will be in fact killing Avalon as a result
of your actions.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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