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From Wes McKinney <wesmck...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Concerns about the Arrow Slack channel
Date Mon, 09 Jul 2018 18:59:05 GMT
Copying the list of issues with Slack from the vote thread:

* Semi-private
* Not indexed in search engines
* Not managed by the ASF or archived in a public place
* Not frequented by many Arrow developers

I think because of these things there is no way to claim that Slack is
an equivalent communication channel to JIRA, GitHub, or the mailing
list. Discussions relating to project governance or roadmap/planning
need to happen in a location that is consistent with the Apache Way
(open / public /  archived).

This is not to say that subcommunities cannot use other communication
channels to talk with each other (I use Google Hangouts frequently to
coordinate with Uwe or Phillip, for example).

I think it's fine for Graphistry to operate an Arrow-JS Slack channel
(as long as it its use does not violate the ASF trademark policy in
some way). Note that anything that is discussed there would be
considered "outside of the community" from a governance perspective.

- Wes

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Paul Taylor <ptaylor.apache@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian, Leo, and I yesterday discussed creating an ArrowJS channel in the
> Graphistry Slack as an alternative. Graphistry doesn't mind being the
> channel admins, we just don't want to run afoul of any ASF guidelines for
> project organization.
>
>
>
> On 07/09/2018 11:47 AM, Uwe L. Korn wrote:
>>
>> Bumping this thread again as we still have to discuss how to deal with the
>> JavaScript community in Slack.
>>
>> The main difference here with all other parts of the Arrow community is
>> that they are very active users and also use Slack for communication between
>> developers.
>>
>> Paul, Brian & co: Is there an alternative that you could think off that
>> works as good as the current approach? Maybe should be do a Slack for solely
>> Arrow JS?
>>
>> Uwe
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Wes McKinney wrote:
>>>
>>> I have just started a vote about closing the channel.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would personally prefer to have all questions on the mailing list
>>>> for now. I don't know if the community is large enough to provide
>>>> consistent attention on an additional communication channel. If there
>>>> end up being too many user-centric questions on dev@, we can activate
>>>> and use user@ as some other projects (like Spark) do.
>>>>
>>>> I see Discourse as a longer-term possibility. We also need to see if
>>>> ASF Infrastructure will support it, which would be the ideal route.
>>>>
>>>> - Wes
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Dhruv Madeka <madeka@nyu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It might be nice to have the discourse option before shutting it down.
>>>>> As
>>>>> someone who asks, that would be a nice way to get me to migrate
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> hi folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How would you like to proceed on the Slack channel discussion? It
>>>>>> seems there is reasonable consensus to close the channel. Should
we
>>>>>> have a vote?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be a good idea to export the data / chat history from the
>>>>>> channel before closing it down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Wes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:36 PM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's sort of unrelated to this conversation, but since someone
>>>>>>> mentioned MXNet I want to call attention to a thread on their
podling
>>>>>>> mailing list about JIRA vs. GitHub issues:
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/b4d174223d68c5822ea538f2609281
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c8023c7cc1eaef298bb2c4c186@%3Cdev.mxnet.apache.org%3E.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To summarize the thread: a lot of people don't like change, but
>>>>>>> sometimes change is good. Some people have complained privately
to me
>>>>>>> that Arrow doesn't work like any other random project on GitHub.
>>>>>>> Anyone who doesn't contribute to the project on account of that
is,
>>>>>>> IMHO, not a serious contributor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I personally find JIRA to be an excellent tool, but it's a steeper
>>>>>>> learning curve than GitHub and so it does take a bit of effort
to
>>>>>>> learn its features.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Wes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:05 PM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks all. I'm intrigued by Discourse (for some reason I
keep
>>>>>>>> typing
>>>>>>>> "discourge.org"); we should inquire with ASF infra to see
if they
>>>>>>>> would be willing to support it for us. It's important that
we
>>>>>>>> develop
>>>>>>>> a public record for the project, and for that data to be
archived
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> indexed in some place that is owned by the ASF. I'm frankly
-0 on
>>>>>>>> having a fourth communication channel (outside of
>>>>>>>> e-mail/JIRA/GitHub)
>>>>>>>> since three is already a lot to keep track of. If we had
a larger
>>>>>>>> maintainer team, I might feel differently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Travis had some questions about GitHub and JIRA. JIRA is
the only
>>>>>>>> system of record for concrete development activity in the
project.
>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>> use GitHub pull requests to submit patches (some projects
use
>>>>>>>> Gerrit,
>>>>>>>> or attach patch files to JIRA), but all of the data generated
on
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> PRs (code review comments, etc.) is mirrored back to JIRA.
>>>>>>>> Furthermore, JIRA activity is relayed to the issues@arrow.apache.org
>>>>>>>> mailing list. So ultimately we have a public record for the
project
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> mailing lists.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many newcomers have never interacted with an Apache project
before,
>>>>>>>> and so when they go to http://github.com/apache/arrow their
first
>>>>>>>> reaction is to look for the Issues tab to report a bug or
ask for
>>>>>>>> something. For a long time we didn't have issues turned on,
and we
>>>>>>>> found that people were "bouncing" rather than seeking out
the
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list or JIRA. We'd rather capture the information somewhere
rather
>>>>>>>> than lose it. We have an issue template asking people to
either use
>>>>>>>> the mailing list or JIRA, but a lot of people ignore it
>>>>>>>> unfortunately:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/arrow/blob/master/.github/ISSUE_TEMPLATE.md.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Wes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 10:52 PM, Kenta Murata <muraken@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I heard from Kou that you’re discussing to stop using
Slack.
>>>>>>>>> So I want to propose another way to use Discourse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2018/06/21 18:46:54, Dhruv Madeka <m...@nyu.edu>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The issue with discourse is that you either have
to host it or pay
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for them
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to host it
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Discourse provides free hosting plan for community friendly
>>>>>>>>> opensource
>>>>>>
>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> See this article for the details:
>>>>>>>>> <https://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> but still +1 for discourse, its a really nice format
(I actually
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1'ed the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PyTorch forum on this thread too)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’m also +1 for discourse because I’m managing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://discourse.ruby-data.org/ by this plan.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Kenta Murata
>
>

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