Mailing-List: contact dev-help@apr.apache.org; run by ezmlm
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:17:49 -0700
From: Jon Travis <jtravis@covalent.net>
To: dev@httpd.apache.org, dev@apr.apache.org, pmc@httpd.apache.org,
   pmc@apr.apache.org, board@apache.org
Cc: rmorgan@covalent.net, dougm@covalent.net
Subject: Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Message-ID: <20020910001749.C7822@covalent.net>
References: <20020826203215.A17639@covalent.net>
 <20020909103621.A21302@covalent.net> <20020909133325.A25078@covalent.net>
 <20020909232104.A1203@lyra.org>
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 from gstein@apache.org on Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 11:21:04PM -0700

On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 11:21:04PM -0700, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 01:33:25PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this 
> > integrated, I'd like to set a deadline.  This would help
> > me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> > can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> > weigh down the process.  It will just save us all a lot of
> > time & energy.
> > 
> > Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> > to deal with the code.  Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> > decided I'll look into other options.
> 
> 
> Jon --
> 
> The HTTP Server Project, the APR Project, and the ASF will not abide by your
> threats of "taking the code elsewhere." We will not be subject to coercive
> behavior, nor do we look kindly upon the attempt. The ASF is about working
> together. Your message certainly does not mesh with our concepts of
> community and respect.

The ASF is apparently not about working together, since I (and 
everyone else who is not on the PMC list) have been entirely left 
out of all this conversation which is going on behind closed doors.
I am not trying to coerce anyone -- I'm merely trying to put a limit
on the maximum amount of time that this will be debated.  That is
a perfectly valid, and responsible thing to do.

> Frankly, there is no need or driving force for us to accept code donations.
> That means it isn't possible to "hold this over our heads." We can easily
> choose to ignore the whole thing, with no real loss to our fundamental
> ideals and to our communities.

It seems as though that is exactly what you've done -- "ignored it."  
I am constantly probing for information as to where this stands, both
via these lists and asking on the #apr IRC channel.  You're interpretation
if "holding this over your head" is fairly outrageous, since Apache
exists perfectly fine without this contribution.

> As of this moment, I'm going to recommend that the ASF will work directly
> with Covalent management regarding the donation. The other members involved
> may certainly choose to continue working through you [to Covalent], as I do
> not speak for them, but I seriously doubt that will be the case. Your
> behavior does not bode well for your continued involvement in the process.

That's quite the attack (and one which fits in well with your
"concepts of community and respect"?) .  All decisions which have been 
made about this project (Open sourcing it, setting a deadline, etc.) have 
been dictated by management at Covalent.  

> If you want to persuade your management to publish the code through a
> different owner, or under a different license, then please feel free. If
> Covalent management chooses to not donate the code to the ASF, then so be
> it -- that is their choice. But take your coercive tactics elsewhere.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   Greg Stein
>   Chairman, Apache Software Foundation

These are not coercive tactics.  These are processes which are beneficial
to both the ASF and Covalent.  I cannot continually monitor the progress
of this project for eternity.  I'm astonished that this deadline email
has caused such a response.  This sets an extremely bad precedent for
other companies (or anyone for that matter) who wants to contribute 
to the ASF.

Personally (Covalent hat off), it's a bummer that this is your response
to the donation.  I was the one who originally proposed it to management,
they agreed to it, and now I've gotten involved in all kinds of politics and
inflamatory emails.  That's a long way from being excited about
contritributing to the ASF, and sadly seems like more trouble than it's worth.

-- Jon