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From Pramod Immaneni <pra...@datatorrent.com>
Subject Re: checking dependencies for known vulnerabilities
Date Fri, 27 Oct 2017 21:28:53 GMT
On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Vlad Rozov <vrozov@apache.org> wrote:

> On 10/26/17 11:46, Pramod Immaneni wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Vlad Rozov <vrozov@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I guess you are mostly concerned regarding new CVE in an existing
>>> dependency. Once such CVE is added to a database, will it be better to
>>> know
>>> about it or postpone discovery till we cut release candidate? In case it
>>> is
>>> reported only during release cycle, there is much less time for the
>>> community to take an action and it still needs to be taken (as a PMC
>>> member
>>> you are responsible for preventing release with severe security issue
>>> going
>>> out). If it is reported once the information becomes available, there is
>>> more time to research and either upgrade the dependency with newly found
>>> CVE, agree that it does not impact the project.
>>>
>>> This would be the more commonly occurring scenario. We can always know
>> about the CVEs because of your changes. We don't need to fail builds to do
>> that. I am not asking you to remove the reporting. There is no set time
>> for
>> a release so having less time during release for addressing relevant CVEs
>> does not come up. There is also nothing preventing anyone from looking at
>> these reports and taking action earlier.
>>
> I don't see why it will be more commonly occurring scenario, but I think
> it is equally important to prevent new dependency with severe
> vulnerabilities being introduced into the project and check existing
> dependencies for newly discovered severe vulnerabilities.
>
> How will we know about CVE if it is removed from CI build? Why require
> manual verification when it can be done during CI build and does not affect
> builds done by individual contributors?
>
> While there is no set time for a release, there is no set time for a PR
> merge as well.
>
> Yes, nothing prevents anyone from looking at the dependency
> vulnerabilities, but there is a better chance that "anyone" does not mean
> nobody if CI build fails.
>
>>
>>
>> I still do not understand why you value an individual contributor and PR
>>> over the community and the project itself. Once there is a severe
>>> security
>>> vulnerability, it affects everyone who cares about the project, including
>>> all contributors. I don't see a problem with a PR being in a pending (not
>>> merged) open state till a build issue is resolved.
>>>
>>> That is a mischaracterization that you have stated before as well. A
>> project cannot grow without contributions and without policies that create
>> a supportive enviroment where that can happen, I don't see the need to put
>> unnecessary obstacles for legitimate contributions that are not the cause
>> of a problem. Everytime there is a matching CVE the PRs are going to get
>> blocked till that CVE is addressed and I am not confident we have the
>> bandwidth in the community to address this expediently. It is also
>> inaccurate to equate this to PR not being merged till build issues are
>> resolved as it derives from an assumption that CVE is same as a build
>> failure.
>>
> While project can't grow without individual contributions, project is a
> result of a large number of contributions from a number of contributors.
> Some of those contributors are not active anymore and will not provide any
> fixes should a vulnerability be found in their contribution. It becomes a
> shared responsibility of all currently active community members and those
> who submit PR are part of the community and share that responsibility, are
> not they? If a contributor considers him/herself as part of a community,
> why he or she can't wait for the build issue to be resolved or better take
> an action on resolving the issue? The only possible explanation that I see
> is the one that I already mentioned on this thread.
>
> If you see this as unnecessary obstacles for legitimate contributions, why
> to enforce code style, it is also unnecessary obstacle. Unit test? Should
> it be considered to be optional for a PR to pass unit tests as well? What
> if an environment change on CI side causes build to fail similar to what
> happened recently? Should we disable CI builds too and rely on a committer
> or a release manager to run unit tests?  If CI build fails for whatever
> reason, how can you be sure that if it fails for another PR as well, that
> they both fail for the same reason and there is no any other reasons that
> will cause a problem with a PR?


I don't know how failing PRs because of CVE, which we don't introduce,
don't control, no idea of and possibly unrelated would fall in the same
bucket as unit tests. I am at a loss of words for that. There is no reason
to block legitimate development for this. This can be handled separtely and
in parallel. Maybe there is a way we can setup an independent job on a
build server that runs nightly, fails if there are new CVEs discovered and
sends an email out to the security or dev group. You could even reduce the
CVE threshold for this. I don't believe in a stick approach (carrot and
stick metaphor) and believe in proportional measures.


>
>
>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Vlad
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/26/17 09:42, Pramod Immaneni wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 12:08 AM, Vlad Rozov <vrozov@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There is a way to add an exception, but it needs to be discussed on a
>>>> case
>>>>
>>>>> by case basis. Note that CVEs are not published until a fix is
>>>>> available.
>>>>> For severity 8 CVEs I expect patches to become available for the
>>>>> reported
>>>>> version unless it is an obsolete version in which case, the upgrade to
>>>>> a
>>>>> supported version is already overdue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we should retain the ability to make that choice of what and
>>>>> when
>>>>>
>>>> to upgrade rather than hard enforce it. Like I mentioned the CVE may not
>>>> apply to us (it has happened before), even though it may be beneficial
>>>> upgrade generally when its not applicable, there may not be the
>>>> bandwidth
>>>> in community to do the necessary changes to upgrade to a newer version
>>>> especially if those dependencies don't follow semver (has happened
>>>> before
>>>> as well, remember effort with ning). My caution comes from experiencing
>>>> this situation before.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how reporting helps. If a build succeeds, I don't expect
>>>>
>>>>> anyone to look into the report, it is only when CI build fails,
>>>>> committers
>>>>> and reviewers look into the details.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can add a mandatory step during release that we need to assess CVEs
>>>>>
>>>> matching this criteria before proceeding with the release. This could
>>>> end
>>>> up requiring upgrade of some dependencies and in other cases it may not
>>>> be
>>>> needed. This assessment can also happen more often in adhoc fashion
>>>> offline
>>>> before release based upon interest from community. I am also open to
>>>> making
>>>> it mandatory with every PR, in future, like you are suggesting, if we
>>>> see
>>>> sufficient uptake in community on these issues. From experience this is
>>>> not
>>>> there currently and hence I don't want to do this now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IMO, it does not matter how CVE is introduced. It may be a new
>>>> dependency
>>>>
>>>>> with an existing CVE or it can be a new CVE for an existing dependency.
>>>>> In
>>>>> both cases, dependency with the CVE needs to be fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> In one case the PR is not directly responsible for the issue and hence
>>>> we
>>>> should avoid penalizing them or block them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>> Vlad
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/25/17 11:58, Pramod Immaneni wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks that sounds mostly fine except what happens if there is a cve
>>>>>
>>>>>> matching that severity in a dependency but it doesnt affect us because
>>>>>> let's say we don't exercise that part of functionality *and* there
>>>>>> isn't a
>>>>>> fix available or there is a fix but the upgrade requires significant
>>>>>> effort
>>>>>> (for example if we need to move to a new major version of the
>>>>>> dependency
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> something like that). Is there a way to add an exception like we
did
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> checkstyle in the interim. How about reporting instead of failing
the
>>>>>> builds. One of the steps in release process could be to investigate
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> reports before proceeding with the release. If a PR introduces new
>>>>>> cves
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> virtue of adding a new dependency or changing an existing version,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> would be of interest and can be subject to failure. Is there a way
to
>>>>>> distinguish that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 8:52 AM Vlad Rozov <vrozov@apache.org>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A CVE (should there be a vulnerability in existing or a newly
>>>>>> introduced
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dependency) will not be exposed during the CI build, but the build
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> fail if the CVE has severity 8 or above. To get the details,
it will
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> necessary to run dependency check manually.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vlad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/24/17 16:27, Pramod Immaneni wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was a lot of discussion on this but looks like there was
no
>>>>>>> final
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> agreement. Can you summarize what your PR does? Are we disclosing
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> actual vulnerabilities as part of the automated build for
every PR?
>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>> would be a no-no for me. If it is something that requires
manual
>>>>>>>> steps,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> example as part of a release build, that would be fine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Vlad Rozov <vrozov@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please see https://github.com/apache/apex-core/pull/585 and
>>>>>>>> APEXCORE-790.
>>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vlad
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/14/17 09:35, Vlad Rozov wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you expect anything else from the community to recognize
a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> contribution other than committing it to the code line?
Once there
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> steady flow of quality contributions, the community/PMC
will
>>>>>>>>>> recognize
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> contributor by making that contributor a committer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Vlad
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/12/17 13:05, Sanjay Pujare wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For a vendor too, quality ought to be as important
as security so
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> think we disagree on the cost benefit analysis. But
I get your
>>>>>>>>> drift.
>>>>>>>>> By "creative incentive" I didn't imply any material incentive
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (although a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> gift card would be nice :-)) but more along the lines
of what a
>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>> can do to recognize such contribution.
>>>>>>>>> Sanjay
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Vlad Rozov <vrozov@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I guess we have a different view on the benefit and
cost
>>>>>>>>> definition.
>>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>>> me the benefit of fixing CI build, flaky unit test, severe
security
>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> is huge for the community and is possibly small (except
for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> security
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> issues) for a vendor.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By "creative" I hope you don't mean that other community
members,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and customers send a contributor a gift cards
to compensate for
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> :). For me PR that is blocked on a failed CI build
is sufficiently
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> incentive for a contributor to look into why it fails
and fixing
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Vlad
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/17 23:58, Sanjay Pujare wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to speak for others and I don't
want to generalize.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> obvious answer could be "cost-benefit analysis".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In any case we should come up with a creative way to
"incentivize"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do these tasks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>

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