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From "Scot P. Floess" <flo...@mindspring.com>
Subject Re: Python implementation for Ant
Date Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:03:08 GMT
I think it really depends on the implementation.  A BASH script doesnt complain when a variable
isn't set...its just not set...no apparent errors other than odd side effects...

I would think, with this argument, one could do a 2 pass parse of the Ant script first...

I think its really all in the need and what the tool is suppose to accomplish.  Myself, I
think Ant is a GREAT scripting language so I use it as such...

I understand the other issues discussed, but I believe I can counter with my own arguments
;)

Scot

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Abley <james.abley@volantis.com>
>Sent: Feb 8, 2007 4:37 PM
>To: Ant Users List <user@ant.apache.org>
>Subject: Re: Python implementation for Ant
>
>I only have limited scripting language experience (Python, Perl, Ruby 
>and Groovy) but normally a variable not being set would show up at 
>runtime, rather than compile time? Discuss.
>
>;-)
>
>Hans Schwaebli wrote:
>> A side effect of the make files is its platform dependence. And there had been other
problems I read, like a space character causing a bug and you needed lot of time to find these
bugs. Concerning bugs I can tell my own story with the way Ant files are written. If a variable
is not set, a compiler of a scripting language would complain at compile time, wheareas with
Ant's XML files these bugs only show up at runtime. Just one example. I surely have hundreds
of reasons inventing a alternative to Ant like the inventor of Ant started developing it after
so many bugs because of a missing space or something like this.
>> 
>> 
>> "Scot P. Floess" <floess@mindspring.com> wrote: Peter:
>> 
>> That's a good point regarding Makefiles (I was simply thinking of scripting)... 
There was a time  "loved" writing Makefiles...uhm...not anymore ;)
>> 
>> Regardless...I still think XML as a markup is more than tolerable...I don't see the
issues with it at all.  I mean, I like Java but I don't think I'd want to write scripts using
it...  Just my personal preference...but still...  I suppose one could have made the same
argument against Makefiles and SH (or BASH)...
>> 
>> Scot
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Peter Reilly 
>> 
>>> Sent: Feb 8, 2007 1:47 PM
>>> To: Ant Users List 
>>> Subject: Re: Python implementation for Ant
>>>
>>> On 2/8/07, Matt Benson  wrote:
>>>> Here's a link to Terence Parr's "Humans should not
>>>> have to grok XML" article:
>>>>
>>>> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-sbxml.html
>>>>
>>>> In it he explains the distinction between XML as a
>>>> data representation format, the use for which it was
>>>> AFAIK intended,
>>> This is one viewpoint.
>>> HTML is from the same source and it is for
>>> human consumption.
>>> XML is actually easier that HTML as it is less forgiving
>>> with regard to mistakes.
>>>> vs. as an explicit interface for human
>>>> consumption.  Regardless of your own position, I found
>>>> it an interesting read.  Terence is an example of a
>>>> noted personality in the OSS community who develops in
>>>> Java but has never touched Ant precisely _because_ of
>>>> its XML interface.
>>> Mmm,
>>> I spend ~15 years fighting cryptic make files - sometimes
>>> I wrote perl scripts to help - it was not a pleasant experience.
>>> I never really understood the M4 / configure / autoconf stuff.
>>>
>>> I found ant build files to be simple to understand and to
>>> use for java projects (once one realized that the commands/tasks
>>> are directory based).
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>> So such developers definitely
>>>> exist, thought it's quite possible he is the only one
>>>> whose aversion to human-targeted XML is a strong
>>>> enough deterrent in and of itself.  ;)
>>>>
>>>> -Matt
>>>>
>>>> --- "Scot P. Floess"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'd have to agree with Rob...  Have you ever looked
>>>>> at Voice XML?  It took is scripting but using XML as
>>>>> the "markup" language....
>>>>>
>>>>> What is your aversion to XML with regards to it as a
>>>>> scripting language?  I personally like it...
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: "Anderson, Rob (Global Trade)"
>>>>>> Sent: Feb 8, 2007 12:58 PM
>>>>>> To: Ant Users List 
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Python implementation for Ant
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Hans Schwaebli
>>>>> [mailto:hans_schwaebli@yahoo.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:01 AM
>>>>>>> To: Ant Users List
>>>>>>> Subject: Python implementation for Ant
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think about the XML format used for
>>>>> writing Ant
>>>>>>> scripts? I don't like it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   What about writing Ant scripts in a script
>>>>> language like
>>>>>>> Python or Jython instead of writing them in XML?
>>>>> I think it
>>>>>>> would be much more productive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   There seems to be a private project for this,
>>>>> but it is not
>>>>>>> official, not from Apache.
>>>>>> I have no issues with XML. It seems to work well
>>>>> for me. It is easy to
>>>>>> read, understand, and maintain build files in XML
>>>>> format. I have no
>>>>>> desire to change the way I am currently writing
>>>>> build files.
>>>>>> -Rob Anderson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>> Scot P. Floess
>>>>> 27 Lake Royale
>>>>> Louisburg, NC  27549
>>>>>
>>>>> (252) 478-8087 (Home)
>>>>> (919) 754-4592 (Work)
>>>>>
>>>>> Chief Architect JPlate
>>>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/jplate
>>>>> Chief Architect JavaPIM
>>>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/javapim
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>> 
>> 
>> Scot P. Floess
>> 27 Lake Royale
>> Louisburg, NC  27549
>> 
>> (252) 478-8087 (Home)
>> (919) 754-4592 (Work)
>> 
>> Chief Architect JPlate       http://sourceforge.net/projects/jplate
>> Chief Architect JavaPIM    http://sourceforge.net/projects/javapim
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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Scot P. Floess
27 Lake Royale
Louisburg, NC  27549

(252) 478-8087 (Home)
(919) 754-4592 (Work)

Chief Architect JPlate       http://sourceforge.net/projects/jplate
Chief Architect JavaPIM    http://sourceforge.net/projects/javapim

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