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From David McTavish <>
Subject RE: [OT] Seeking input from the comunity at large.
Date Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:15:59 GMT
I appreciate your effort, but I would plead with you to reconsider throwing
a year of your life away. The world really doesn't need a "new" programming
language that will solve all of its problems. I'm sure you've done enough
research into this so far, but I don't think you realize WHY certain
languages gain success. From the short of it, its either centered around
marketing dollars, OR, has an emphasis on high code-output. When trying to
tackle these two distinct "markets", you're going to find, that
a) you don't have the dollars to compete with Java, C#, or an established
C++ development platform
b) you won't be able to gain the grassroots support enjoyed by Perl, PHP,
and Python.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately), someone has already bore this path, and
trying to create a new language to resolve all of the elements that you feel
are "missing" from any particular language will only result in a serious
amount of wasted effort. I would believe that it would be more prudent to
investigate some of the other languages that are "open" that you could
contribute your time and benefit an already established community, instead
of trying to create your own.

Also, your code snippets look like nothing really innovative as to really
require the invention of a new language. From my first perusal, it seems
like a blending of Tcl with Java. Overall, I think that Java is a bit more
elegant, as the requirement to prefix every method with a colon would grow
somewhat tedious. Anyway, apologies for the rant, I'm just trying to provide
some insight into the mountain of effort you're wandering towards in
relation to the lack of reward you'll ever witness.

David McTavish

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Simmons []
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 6:06 PM
Subject: [OT] Seeking input from the comunity at large.


I am embarking on a kind of research project and I would like to know your
on a couple of questions. I have posted these groups because of the large
of very different developers in these groups.

Whe goal of the research project is to develop a new programming language
the ground up completely under the auspices of open source. The goal is to
on the java and C# community at the same time.

The idea revolves around a couple of thoughts. First of all, as a java, c#
c++ programmer, I am aware of a very large number of problems that these
languages have. In addition, I find that no one has tried to merge all of
good traits of these languages into one. You have Sun holding Java
dont fool yourself) and Microsoft holding C# (also proprietary) and doing
combat. However, neither one of them have the resources to throw into a
to really make it transition to the next century. To accomplish that you
far more resources than either can muster. In short, you need open source.

I want to draw your opinions on a couple of questions:

1) What is the reason for Java's success? I postulate that the write once,
anywhere paradigm hasnt really happened. All developers seem to release
of java software targeted at specific OS's. There are few that actually let
dowload a jar and go. I think the motivation was never to be able to run a
single executable anywhere but rather to make it so that converting code
one OS to another was a trivial matter (or at least as trivial as can be)

2) The byte code paradigm. Is it needed? Do we really need interpreted
or is it just a hack to create pseudo OS agnostic constructs. (There are
other ways to make an OS agnostic)

3) One problem many languages have gotten into is that thier keywords are
similar to their variable names. Java got smacked by this when they created
new keyword assert() in JDK 1.4. Now they are gunshy about creating another
keyword called foreach. I propose a language to prefix keywords with a
symbol to
identify them and facilitate expandability. Could you live with code like

:namespace org.myorg.example

:protected :class SomeClass {

     * Compares this object to obj for equality.
     * @param obj The object to compare to.
     * @return The result of the equality check.
    :public boolean equals(any obj) {
        SomeClass target = (SomeClass) obj;
        :if (target.getValue() == :this.getValue()) {
            :return true;
        :return false;

     * Performs some work.
     * @param obj The object to compare to.
    :public :static :const int processArray(:const any[] &values) :const {
        List<SomeClass> list = :new List<SomeClass>(values);
        :foreach (string value :in list) {
            :assert((value != null); ("Bad Data " + &values));
            int length = value.length();
            :switch (length) {
                :case (0) {
                    // do code
                :case (1) {
                    // do other code
                :default {
                     * Shouldn't happen unless user is nuts.

For the java programmers out there, the :namespace directive is similar to
package. The other code should be familiar after you stare at the changed
a minute. This code is from a prototype of the grammar. If you dont like the
symbol I chose (the colon) what other symbol would you feel better with.

Well that should get you all thinking. Thanks for your time and I eagerly
your answers.

-- Robert Simmons

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