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From "Steve Cohen" <SCo...@sportvision.com>
Subject RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support
Date Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:15:10 GMT
The bugs I am talking about are NOT specific to 1.1.  For example, I
myself contributed the StarTeam optional tasks.  <I> don't use 1.1 but I
did have to code parts of it not to use collections that could have been
much better handled with them.  Nevertheless, prior to 1.5.2, there were
significant bugs (or maybe "lack of features" is more appropriate) in
these tasks that affected every platform.
Fixing them had nothing to with the java platform used.

This decision might just as well have been decided on these grounds a
year ago.  JDK 1.1 has been on life-support for at least that long.  Had
this decision been made a year ago, these fixes would have been cut off
to any JDK 1.1 users of these tasks (admittedly, if there are any).  

I guess what I am saying is that a decision to cut off JDK 1.1 should be
supplemented with some sort of indication besides nothing, as to what
sort of maintenance it might be expected to receive in the future.  Is
it perhaps conceivable that any bug fixes to the 1.5 code base might
some day result in an ant 1.5.4 release, even as a 1.2+ or 1.3+ Ant 1.6
is already in release?  That, I think would allay fears of those who
are, for whatever reason, still forced to use jdks older than the target
version for Ant 1.6.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dominique Devienne [mailto:DDevienne@lgc.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:59 AM
To: 'Ant Users List'
Subject: RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support


These 20 years old C++ application you're talking about *might* still
work because they statically linked to all their dependent libraries, or
used such low level APIs (most the C one probably) that haven't changed
for ages because they're low level, and luckily the ABI of the platform
didn't change either. With dynamic linking and/or higher level APIs,
forward compatibility is much harder to achieve...

Java is dynamic in nature. The 'ABI' didn't change much since Java 1.1
(modulo the new assert stuff in 1.4), it's mostly the libraries that
have evolved. Staying back to a 1.1 level of libraries is like writing
against the C API as opposed to std C++ lib & STL.

You have a damn good 1.5 release that supports 1.1. If you are willing
to stay with an old OS that only supports 1.1, you have to bear the
consequences of your choice. Don't blame the Ant community for
abandoning Java 1.1 compatibility, blame the hardware/OS vendor *you*
selected for not sticking to Java (why should SUN to all the work!)

Claiming bugs won't get fixed is nonsense. Most bugs appear when trying
to support newer features and/or OS's, and you don't see very often
someone reporting a bug specific to a 1.1-only platform. The older the
platform, the more likely the bugs have been found and fixed. And
finally, this is open source software: if you do find new bugs for 1.1,
then fix them! The 1.5 branch of Ant will still be active, as active as
people fix the (rare) bugs reported.

Ant should move on to Java 2, to get URLClassLoader, Java 2 collections,
and more. JDK 1.3 and 1.4 features will be part of separate antlibs.

Nobody ever said Ant couldn't be used to build 1.1 application. Ant
should just not be required to itself run on top of such a VM/JDK lib.
--DD

-----Original Message-----
From: David McTavish [mailto:dmctavish@SANDVINE.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:33 AM
To: 'Ant Users List'
Subject: RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support

I think another thing people need to acknowledge is that not everyone
develops for Windows platforms, or, more specifically, platforms that
receive a high-level of support from Sun (ie: Linux, Windows, and
Solaris). This means, that in order for them to do Java development,
they are restricted to older versions of Java. It's not that they don't
want to use cutting-edge software, but rather, JDK 1.1 IS cutting edge
for that particular platform. I find the suggestions to switch to JDK1.4
laughable at best, seeming as 80% of deployed Java software is
implemented as 1.3 code. If Java users wish to deprecate their language
every two years, you will soon start finding people no longer wanting to
buy Java-based solutions. I know of C++ applications that were written
twenty years ago that still function properly without having to be
re-written. If we are going to force every piece of software to be
rewritten JUST to stay current with the versioned compiler of the week,
the Java industry is indeed dead. If we can't support backwards
compatibility and support for older implementations of the language,
then who in their right mind would want to invest in developing Java
solutions when there is a realization that the project will have to be
re-done in one or two years to ensure support.

That being said, if the Ant group wishes JDK1.2 or JDK1.3 to be the base
line to "COMPILE" ant, I'm fine with that, but if the suggestion is that
support for building projects under older JDK frameworks is going to be
deprecated, then this is a serious issue. As the de-facto build tool for
java, Ant plays an important role in the industry. I don't believe that
this decision should be made lightly, or even on the merits of the
people who were willing to respond to this thread. I would strongly
recommend considering the impact this has on providing Java support to
more platforms, and ensuring some level of backwards-compatibility.
Without these aspects, Java is no better than any other programming
language.

I know most people here are responsible for managing the build process
for their respective projects, but it sounds like nobody has the
experience of managing multiple projects that are either in the stages
of on-going development, or are "functionally" complete. Not all
products require infinite development, and if the required objective of
the product is fulfilled, the amount of effort required to ensure its
functionality should be extremely limited. If this is not the case, then
we should all just go back to writing C++ code.

d.



-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Cohen [mailto:SCohen@sportvision.com]
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 10:17 AM
To: Ant Users List
Subject: RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support


The fact that previous versions of ant are not going away doesn't help
when the previous versions have bugs or lack some particular piece of
functionality that is added later, which might be perfectly compatible
with 1.1.  I'm not a committer and I have no vote, and I'm not
necessarily opposed to migrating compatibility at this point to 1.2, but
there is a downside to this sort of thinking and it needs to be
recognized which I don't think you do.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chappell, Simon P [mailto:Simon.Chappell@landsend.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:13 AM
To: Ant Users List
Subject: RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support




>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse Stockall [mailto:jesse@cryptocard.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:02 AM
>To: Ant Users List
>Subject: Re: Dropping JDK 1.1 support
>
>
>On Friday, March 14, 2003, at 09:50  AM, Chappell, Simon P wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> MacOS only supports 1.1, and will never see anything
>newer. The free
>>>> VM's (Kaffe, SableVM, etc) do not support all the 1.4
>>> features, MacOS X
>>>> just got 1.4.1 a couple days ago. OS/2 has 1.3.1, OS/390 has 1.3.1,

>>>> Linux on pSeries (RS/6000) has 1.3.1, Linux on 31 bit
>>> zSeries has 1.3.1.
>>>
>>> It seems that the only system in the above list which would be
>>> affected by a shift to JDK 1.2 would be MacOS. As long as Ant 1.5.x
>>> continues to
>>> be supported (only for bug fixes, obviously) I don't see 
>any problem.
>>
>> Actually, given that MacOS (i.e. all versions previous to OS
>X) is now
>> official in end of life status, and that all new development
>is going
>> into OS X, this does not seem like a huge concern to me. I use OS X
>> and have just upgraded to Java 1.4.1, so I'm not having a 
>problem with
>> this personally. :-)
>
>So are you offering to to purchase new Macs for all those still using
>MacOS 9?

No.

>Just because Apple has decided to EOL MacOS 9, does not mean that
>everyone upgrades over night. Only about 20% - 30% of all Mac 
>users are 
>using OS X, that leaves quite a few with Java 1.1

The previous versions of ant are not going away. You can continue to use
them. The absolute worst case here would be that you could continue to
use ant 1.5 with JDK 1.1 on older Macs.

>Jesse Stockall - jesse@cryptocard.com
>CRYPTOCard Corp.

Simon

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