ant-user mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Dominique Devienne <>
Subject RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support
Date Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:59:11 GMT
These 20 years old C++ application you're talking about *might* still work
because they statically linked to all their dependent libraries, or used
such low level APIs (most the C one probably) that haven't changed for ages
because they're low level, and luckily the ABI of the platform didn't change
either. With dynamic linking and/or higher level APIs, forward compatibility
is much harder to achieve...

Java is dynamic in nature. The 'ABI' didn't change much since Java 1.1
(modulo the new assert stuff in 1.4), it's mostly the libraries that have
evolved. Staying back to a 1.1 level of libraries is like writing against
the C API as opposed to std C++ lib & STL.

You have a damn good 1.5 release that supports 1.1. If you are willing to
stay with an old OS that only supports 1.1, you have to bear the
consequences of your choice. Don't blame the Ant community for abandoning
Java 1.1 compatibility, blame the hardware/OS vendor *you* selected for not
sticking to Java (why should SUN to all the work!)

Claiming bugs won't get fixed is nonsense. Most bugs appear when trying to
support newer features and/or OS's, and you don't see very often someone
reporting a bug specific to a 1.1-only platform. The older the platform, the
more likely the bugs have been found and fixed. And finally, this is open
source software: if you do find new bugs for 1.1, then fix them! The 1.5
branch of Ant will still be active, as active as people fix the (rare) bugs

Ant should move on to Java 2, to get URLClassLoader, Java 2 collections, and
more. JDK 1.3 and 1.4 features will be part of separate antlibs.

Nobody ever said Ant couldn't be used to build 1.1 application. Ant should
just not be required to itself run on top of such a VM/JDK lib. --DD

-----Original Message-----
From: David McTavish [] 
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:33 AM
To: 'Ant Users List'
Subject: RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support

I think another thing people need to acknowledge is that not everyone
develops for Windows platforms, or, more specifically, platforms that
receive a high-level of support from Sun (ie: Linux, Windows, and Solaris).
This means, that in order for them to do Java development, they are
restricted to older versions of Java. It's not that they don't want to use
cutting-edge software, but rather, JDK 1.1 IS cutting edge for that
particular platform. I find the suggestions to switch to JDK1.4 laughable at
best, seeming as 80% of deployed Java software is implemented as 1.3 code.
If Java users wish to deprecate their language every two years, you will
soon start finding people no longer wanting to buy Java-based solutions. I
know of C++ applications that were written twenty years ago that still
function properly without having to be re-written. If we are going to force
every piece of software to be rewritten JUST to stay current with the
versioned compiler of the week, the Java industry is indeed dead. If we
can't support backwards compatibility and support for older implementations
of the language, then who in their right mind would want to invest in
developing Java solutions when there is a realization that the project will
have to be re-done in one or two years to ensure support.

That being said, if the Ant group wishes JDK1.2 or JDK1.3 to be the base
line to "COMPILE" ant, I'm fine with that, but if the suggestion is that
support for building projects under older JDK frameworks is going to be
deprecated, then this is a serious issue. As the de-facto build tool for
java, Ant plays an important role in the industry. I don't believe that this
decision should be made lightly, or even on the merits of the people who
were willing to respond to this thread. I would strongly recommend
considering the impact this has on providing Java support to more platforms,
and ensuring some level of backwards-compatibility. Without these aspects,
Java is no better than any other programming language.

I know most people here are responsible for managing the build process for
their respective projects, but it sounds like nobody has the experience of
managing multiple projects that are either in the stages of on-going
development, or are "functionally" complete. Not all products require
infinite development, and if the required objective of the product is
fulfilled, the amount of effort required to ensure its functionality should
be extremely limited. If this is not the case, then we should all just go
back to writing C++ code.


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Cohen []
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 10:17 AM
To: Ant Users List
Subject: RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support

The fact that previous versions of ant are not going away doesn't help
when the previous versions have bugs or lack some particular piece of
functionality that is added later, which might be perfectly compatible
with 1.1.  I'm not a committer and I have no vote, and I'm not
necessarily opposed to migrating compatibility at this point to 1.2, but
there is a downside to this sort of thinking and it needs to be
recognized which I don't think you do.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chappell, Simon P [] 
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:13 AM
To: Ant Users List
Subject: RE: Dropping JDK 1.1 support

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse Stockall []
>Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:02 AM
>To: Ant Users List
>Subject: Re: Dropping JDK 1.1 support
>On Friday, March 14, 2003, at 09:50  AM, Chappell, Simon P wrote:
>>>> MacOS only supports 1.1, and will never see anything
>newer. The free
>>>> VM's (Kaffe, SableVM, etc) do not support all the 1.4
>>> features, MacOS X
>>>> just got 1.4.1 a couple days ago. OS/2 has 1.3.1, OS/390 has 1.3.1,

>>>> Linux on pSeries (RS/6000) has 1.3.1, Linux on 31 bit
>>> zSeries has 1.3.1.
>>> It seems that the only system in the above list which would be 
>>> affected by a shift to JDK 1.2 would be MacOS. As long as Ant 1.5.x
>>> continues to
>>> be supported (only for bug fixes, obviously) I don't see 
>any problem.
>> Actually, given that MacOS (i.e. all versions previous to OS 
>X) is now 
>> official in end of life status, and that all new development 
>is going 
>> into OS X, this does not seem like a huge concern to me. I use OS X 
>> and have just upgraded to Java 1.4.1, so I'm not having a 
>problem with 
>> this personally. :-)
>So are you offering to to purchase new Macs for all those still using 
>MacOS 9?


>Just because Apple has decided to EOL MacOS 9, does not mean that 
>everyone upgrades over night. Only about 20% - 30% of all Mac 
>users are 
>using OS X, that leaves quite a few with Java 1.1

The previous versions of ant are not going away. You can continue to use
them. The absolute worst case here would be that you could continue to
use ant 1.5 with JDK 1.1 on older Macs.

>Jesse Stockall -
>CRYPTOCard Corp.


To unsubscribe, e-mail:
For additional commands, e-mail:

To unsubscribe, e-mail:
For additional commands, e-mail:

To unsubscribe, e-mail:
For additional commands, e-mail:

View raw message