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From "Steve Loughran" <stev...@iseran.com>
Subject Re: Ant Perversions [was RE: Properties are causing problem in 1.5]
Date Sun, 01 Dec 2002 05:57:41 GMT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Stirling" <scottstirling@rcn.com>
To: "Ant Users List" <ant-user@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 18:49
Subject: RE: Ant Perversions [was RE: Properties are causing problem in 1.5]


> Hi,
>

>
> Cygwin is free and kinda lightweight; UNIX is everywhere.

but ops hate adding more stuff to their boxes than they can, and if it aint
a unix box, trying to get them to put cygwin on is trouble. Plus cygwin is
troublesome too at times.

It's when you're setting up the product's fully
> automated cross-platform build/test/report/install, etc. cycle that
> post-processes external tools' output, generates better email reports than
> Ant's mail logger, configures and runs some MS tool, needs to be
scheduled,
> or set-up quickly and easily on multiple (UNIX and Windows) machines that
I
> start reaching for other tools in the bag.

we use perl for this :)

> The scheduling limitation is kind of a big one.  There are Java scheduling
> tools out there like Flux.  Would that appropriate for scheduling builds
> either from Ant or around Ant?  How do others automate Ant builds in
> cross-platform environments?  Cron on UNIX/AT on WIndows?

anthill, cruisecontrol. AT sucks.



> Scott Stirling
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin [mailto:mgainty@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:29 PM
> > To: Ant Users List; scottstirling@rcn.com
> > Subject: Re: Ant Perversions [was RE: Properties are causing problem in
> > 1.5]
> >
> >
> > Scott:
> > I think you are forgetting why developers choose Ant consistently
> > for their
> > build environments...
> > 1)it is truly portable..I can plunk my build.xml into a different
> > development environment with no ill effect ..can you say the same
> > for ANY of
> > your platform specific tools..Can they read and adjust their environment
> > completely based on
> > a few property files and environment variables?
> > 2)It is free..This makes ant available for all to use..Some IDE's
> > have hiked
> > their price
> > from anywhere between 500-1000$ Why because they are incorporating free
> > tools that you and I have used for free for years..Ants use of the
> > exec/apply and java commands can call or execute the majority of
> > these free
> > tools without incurring the weight and slow speed of an IDE
> > 3)It is lightweight..simply because a developer has the ability
respecify
> > Java_home and thus javac and java tools..How many tools have the
> > ability to
> > dynamically reconfigure itself to changing environment..Most tools I
have
> > seen are static in nature.
> > 4)We have real techs working on Ant who use the product they are
> > developing..this frees us developers from talking to annoying
salespeople
> > pushing IDEs that re slow and resource/memory hogs.
> > I have just given you 4 good reasons for using Ant..
> > Can any of the tools you have mentioned claim to have ALL 4 of the
> > aforementioned benefits..I know that make cant send mail, cant create
> > javadoc and cannot create testcases and run them so the answer to the
> > question is
> > I doubt it..
> > -Martin
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Scott Stirling" <scottstirling@rcn.com>
> > To: "Ant Users List" <ant-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 9:37 PM
> > Subject: Ant Perversions [was RE: Properties are causing problem in 1.5]
> >
> >
> > > I've intentionally sensationalized the subject.  Don't be offended.
> > >
> > > Why use Ant for things like telnet, VSS, .NET, looping scripts,
> > etc.?  I'm
> > > all for Ant as a build tool and tool for general
> > development-related Java
> > > stuff like deploying apps or running command line, non-interactive,
Java
> > > tools.  But Ant's lousy for working with interactive programs,
> > controlling
> > > GUIs, and anything requiring complex flow control logic.
> > People in denial
> > > of this fundamental truth will do anything to compensate for Ant's
> > > limitations.
> > >
> > > I've found tools such as sed, grep, and expect, not to mention the
> > benefits
> > > of UNIX shell scripting, to be indispensable assistants to
> > cross-platform
> > > builds, whether it's for scheduling builds in a platform-neutral way,
or
> > > customizing reports output from 3rd party tools (like StarTeam diff),
or
> > > launching native OS tools like load test tools after a build is
> > deployed.
> > > My answer for platform portability (at least Win32 to UNIX) is Cygwin
on
> > > Windows and basic tools on UNIX.  90% or more of the builds are done
in
> > Ant,
> > > but things like build scheduling, disk mounting, interactive stuff
> > (telnet),
> > > and post-processing text data in an automated way are done
> > outside of Ant
> > > where there are plenty of pre-Ant tools making this stuff fast
> > and easy to
> > > do.  NOTE: I did ask on the sed-users for a Java version of sed
> > and got no
> > > reply -- an interesting idea for a Java open source opportunity, IMO).
> > >
> > > Some people want Ant to do everything (or want to do everything from
> > within
> > > Ant), in hopes of achieving portability perfection in a cross-platform
> > > world, even at the expense of horrible hacks in custom tasks,
> > or tying the
> > > build to OS-specific tools through <apply/> or <exec/>.
> > >
> > > Is the sense of where to draw the line and admit Ant's limitations a
> > matter
> > > of taste?  Experience?  Laziness?  Or what?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Scott Stirling
>
>
>
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