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From Peter Donald <dona...@apache.org>
Subject Re: target as a property
Date Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:37:15 GMT
Oh, and I forgot to mention my favourite quote

"The path to perl is paved with good intentions"

;)

On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:35, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:04, Christopher Berry wrote:
> > This seems to be a recurring theme in the Ant world.
>
> It is a theme in virtually every freesoftware project that is innovative or
> takes a different tact. If you lurk on some of the more "innovative"
> projects you will see the same issues reoccur over and over and over again.
> We even have a few here at apache.
>
> > I would like to add something::  Great software is grown.
>
> well I don't know about that. Great software is made not grown in my
> experience. Evolution leads to accumulation of cruft, diversity and
> complexity (software is no different from real evolution in that respect).
>
> > It is constantly rethought, and refactored. The most important thing we
> > can
>
> do is
>
> > listen --  listen to the code, and listen to the User's of that code.
> > Feedback is critical. And reacting to that feedback is the essence of
> > evolution.
>
> Thats why we have revolutions/forks (ie complete rethinking of code base).
> Forks are more dynamic and change faster. They also rarely support
> backwards compatability to such a high degree.
>
> > Over and over, a great many Ant User's keep asking for the same features.
> > E.g. <foreach>, <if>, <unsetproperty>, ${target}, etc., etc. Are
we all
> > misguided souls??
>
> Time and time again I have heard people ask for access to pointers in java,
> self manageable memory (specifically destructors), .... Are they all
> misguided souls ?
>
> >Isn't it possible that we are supplying valid feedback??
> > Feedback that could take Ant to even greater places??
>
> Isn't it possible that adding pointers to java is valid feedback? Feedback
> that could take java to even greater places??
>
> See a pattern here ? ;)
>
> > Remember that these User's are just poor souls like me, with real-world
> > problems to solve -- with real deadlines -- often working in large,
> > existing "make" systems. Architectural Purity is often a luxury we cannot
> > afford.
>
> well then you may have made a bad choice ;) I still use gnumake (and
> recently a TCL based system) to build complex projects. Ant wasn't designed
> for complex build scenarios.
>
> Adhoc bolting on of features anytime someone wants to solve a "real world
> problem today" leads to bad design and crap software. Ant already has
> enough crap "features" that are a result of this process. Many design
> choices were made for precisely this reason early on and we still have to
> support them today.
>
> > Is bifurcating Ant really a valid option??
>
> if you want those features it is the only way you are going to get them.
>
> > Maybe it is time to let go a little. Like a proud parent seeing your
> > child grow. Not necessarily always in the direction you might choose. But
> > that's just part of being a parent.
>
> ahh no. Opensource software is precisely that. We get to make stuff the way
> we want and how we like because we want to and for no other reason. If we
> make the wrong choices a fork will startup, get popoular and takeover.
> Apaches jserv evolved this way, GCC evolved this way, many projects evolve
> this way.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> *-----------------------------------------------------*
>
> | "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
> | and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
> | everyone gets busy on the proof."                   |
> |              - John Kenneth Galbraith               |
>
> *-----------------------------------------------------*

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."                   |
|              - John Kenneth Galbraith               |
*-----------------------------------------------------*

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