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From "Xavier Hanin" <xavier.ha...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Ivy settings id (was Re: Merge 641903 from trunk to 1.7 branch?)
Date Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:31:10 GMT
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Gilles Scokart <gscokart@gmail.com> wrote:

> For the record, I'm -0.5 to the plan of Maarten.

What do you exactly mean by -0.5? Do you mean that you don't like it, but
will still accept it if we don't find a better and more broadly accepted
solution? Or that you will veto changes implied by Maarten's change?


> I think settings should looks like a datatype (and maybe resolve as
> well),

I somewhat agree, and I think it's not opposed to Maarten's plan. Having
settings being a datatype is not opposed to have task to load an instance of
the datatype, just because datatypes are lazy loaded.

but I don't find any good aproach to do it.  The changes would
> be too big.  So I don't see a better plan than the one presented by
> Maarten.
>
> If someone has a better plan, please talk.
>
> Concerning the name, I would preffer to stick to configure if we don't
> move to a datatype.  I don't think that configuring ivy using a
> settings file will be confused with the dependency configurations.

For newbies I'm really not sure it won't be confusing. Maybe more
specifically for non english speakers. The only argument for configure IMO
is BC. So I prefer setup or loadsettings, but I won't object if more people
prefer configure though.

Xavier

>
>
> Gilles
>
> On 31/03/2008, Xavier Hanin <xavier.hanin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Maarten Coene <maarten_coene@yahoo.com>
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> >  > I don't think the tasks should be stateless, I think it's fine the
> way it
> >  > is now.
> >  > There are other examples of tasks that must be executed one ofther
> the
> >  > other, like:
> >  > setProxy -> must be executed before outgoing http connections are
> made if
> >  > you have a proxy
> >  > the Clover tasks -> the setup task must be executed first
> >  > junitreport -> is sharing state with the junit tasks through xml
> files, a
> >  > bit the same as the postresolve task can share state with the resolve
> task
> >  > by parsing the XML resolve report.
> >  >
> >  > If we keep ivy:settings to be a task, we should do 2 things:
> >  > - rename the "id" attribute to something else
> >  > - rename "ivy:settings" to something else to make it more clear what
> it
> >  > does to avoid confusion. But I think Gilles has a point here about
> the
> >  > ivy:configure task. I don't see a difference between the
> "ivy:settings" task
> >  > and the "ivy:configure" task, except the ability to specify a
> settings id.
> >  >
> >  > So, I think we should do the following:
> >  > 1. undeprecate the "ivy:configure" task and add a settingsId
> attribute to
> >  > it (and the other settings attributes that aren't present on
> ivy:configure)
> >  > 2. undefine the "ivy:settings" task (just remove it from the
> antlib.xml)
> >  > 3. refactor the IvyAntSettingsTask (or whatever it's name is) to be a
> real
> >  > datatype, which will be created internally by ivy:configure and used
> in all
> >  > the other Ivy tasks. But don't make this datatype available for usage
> in the
> >  > ant scripts yet. This way, it will be easy to support the use-case of
> >  > lazy-loading the Ivy settings once we think it's usefull to support
> it.
> >
> >
> > I mostly agree with this plan. The only thing I'm still wondering about
> is
> >  if naming the task "configure" is a good idea. We have renamed
> configuration
> >  files to settings files everywhere to avoid the confusion. Calling the
> task
> >  configure may reintroduce some confusion. So I'd prefer another name,
> like
> >  loadsettings or setup.
> >
> >
> >  Xavier
> >
> >
> >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Maarten
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > ----- Original Message ----
> >  > From: Xavier Hanin <xavier.hanin@gmail.com>
> >  > To: Ant Developers List <dev@ant.apache.org>
> >  > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:52:39 PM
> >  > Subject: Re: Ivy settings id (was Re: Merge 641903 from trunk to
> 1.7branch?)
> >  >
> >  > On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Gilles Scokart <gscokart@gmail.com>
> >  > wrote:
> >  >
> >  > > I'm -1 to rename ivy:settings into ivy:loadsettings.  If you realy
> >  > > want something like that, then it would be better to go back to the
> >  > > ivy:configure (and I would be -0.5).
> >  > >
> >  > > The reason I think ivy:settings should be a data-type (or look like
> a
> >  > > data type) is because every ant task are "standalone".  I don't
> know
> >  > > any example of 2 tasks that should be executed one after the other,
> >  > > while it is usual to have an ant task depending on a pre-declared
> >  > > datatype.
> >  >
> >  > First, if we really want to have all Ivy tasks stateless, we should
> change
> >  > resolve too. The problem is exactly the same between resolve and any
> post
> >  > resolve task as it is between settings and any other task.
> >  > Second, I see an example of tasks somewhat depending on one another:
> >  > taskdef
> >  > and any task declared by the taskdef.
> >  > So I think loading settings with a task is consistent with resolving
> >  > dependencies with a task, and I think it's the only way we have to
> >  > actually
> >  > load the settings when the user wants. If datatype were not lazily
> >  > initialized I think I'd be in favour of using a datatype. But with
> the
> >  > current facts I'm not.
> >  >
> >  > Xavier
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > >
> >  > > An other way to say that is that every tasks are "stateless".  The
> >  > > only exceptions is the properties task, which for me look like a
> data
> >  > > declaration.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > >
> >  > > That's why Ant is a declarative langage, and not a procedural
> langage.
> >  > >  I consider ivy:configure "command" as a procedural command and not
> a
> >  > > declarative one.
> >  > >
> >  > > Now, I agree that the declarative aproach leas to some issues.  One
> of
> >  > > them is that the datatype are curently always processed lazily (the
> >  > > first time they are used) and thus the errors are also reported
> >  > > lazily, which make the debuging more complex.
> >  > >
> >  > > Anyway, even if I like the suggestion of Dominique (the user that
> >  > > don't want to put a settingsRef should use ivy:configure in BC
> mode),
> >  > > it has a drawback.  If the user forget to put its settingsRef, he
> will
> >  > > not receive any error message, the code will run with the default
> >  > > settings, even if an other settings is defined.  This lead to
> problem
> >  > > difficult to debug.
> >  > >
> >  > > Gilles
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > On 29/03/2008, Xavier Hanin <xavier.hanin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Dominique Devienne <
> >  > > ddevienne@gmail.com>
> >  > > >  wrote:
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >  > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Maarten Coene <
> >  > > maarten_coene@yahoo.com>
> >  > > >  > wrote:
> >  > > >  > > Can't we just deprecate the "id" attribute on the settings
> task
> >  > and
> >  > > use
> >  > > >  > the settingsId attribute instead?
> >  > > >  >
> >  > > >  > id is handled by Ant itself, in the core. I don't think you
> can
> >  > > deprecate
> >  > > >  > it.
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I think we would deprecate the usage we do of id, not really the
> >  > > attribute
> >  > > >  itself. And I don't think we even really need to deprecate it,
> the
> >  > > usage of
> >  > > >  id like it is used today has been introduced in 2.0 alphas and
> betas,
> >  > > so
> >  > > >  with no guarantee that it won't change.
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >  >
> >  > > >  > And that doesn't change the fact that <settings> should
be a
> >  > datatype
> >  > > >  > rather than a task. --DD
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I'm still not sure if settings "should" be a datatype. Maybe the
> name
> >  > > makes
> >  > > >  thinks it should be a datatype. If we call it loadsettings
> instead, I
> >  > > think
> >  > > >  it still make sense to make it a task. Exactly as resolve is a
> task,
> >  > > and
> >  > > >  allow with resolveId to set the id of the resolve report it
> generates
> >  > > and is
> >  > > >  later used by other tasks like retrieve. Making resolve a
> datatype
> >  > > would
> >  > > >  really not make any sense IMO, since what people expect when
> calling
> >  > is
> >  > > >  actually to resolve dependencies. We can consider it's the same
> thing
> >  > > with
> >  > > >  settings/loadsettings. It's kind of similar to the property task
> when
> >  > > you
> >  > > >  use the file attribute: it loads a property file and sets a set
> of
> >  > > >  properties. It has a side effect for other tasks, but it's still
> a
> >  > > task, not
> >  > > >  a datatype.
> >  > > >
> >  > > >  So maybe renaming settings in loadsettings and renaming id in
> >  > > settingsId
> >  > > >  would be a pretty good solution for 2.0: it give us the
> opportunity
> >  > to
> >  > > later
> >  > > >  add a settings datatype, which loadsettings is only responsible
> for
> >  > > loading.
> >  > > >  And we don't have the 'id' bad usage anymore.
> >  > > >
> >  > > >  WDYT?
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >  Xavier
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >  >
> >  > > >  >
> >  > > >  >
> >  > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  > > >  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@ant.apache.org
> >  > > >  > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@ant.apache.org
> >  > > >  >
> >  > > >  >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > --
> >  > > >  Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
> >  > > >  http://xhab.blogspot.com/
> >  > > >  http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
> >  > > >  http://www.xoocode.org/
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > --
> >  > > Gilles Scokart
> >  > >
> >  > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@ant.apache.org
> >  > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@ant.apache.org
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > --
> >  > Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
> >  > http://xhab.blogspot.com/
> >  > http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
> >  > http://www.xoocode.org/
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
>  ____________________________________________________________________________________
> >  > Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access
> for one
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> >  >
> >  > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@ant.apache.org
> >  > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@ant.apache.org
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
> >  http://xhab.blogspot.com/
> >  http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
> >  http://www.xoocode.org/
> >
>
>
> --
> Gilles Scokart
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@ant.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@ant.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
http://xhab.blogspot.com/
http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
http://www.xoocode.org/

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