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From Steve Loughran <ste...@apache.org>
Subject Re: a few questions (sorry quite long)
Date Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:26:50 GMT
James Fuller wrote:
> Steve Loughran wrote:
> 
>> James Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> btw I have a few general developer questions... before I start caning 
>>> bugzilla I think any responses would be well appreciated;
>>
>>
> really appreciate the time you have taken to answer.....even where you 
> have confirmed simply lets me know if something is considered optional, 
> must do, or a bit of cruft in the source.
> 
>> This makes some sense, apart from the schema bit at the bottom. 
>> Schema? We dont need no schema :)
> 
> 
> schema can be an opt in, admittedly writing a schema would give hints to 
> editors out there...by using NRL (namespace routing language) we can 
> allow authors to use whatever schema lang they prefer (my own choice is 
> RELAXNG). Also through namespace declaration we can let authors use 
> whatever markup they choose for descriptive blocks (xhtml, etc).

XSD   is misguided and evil. Its type model doesnt match an object model 
in any OO language, and it is a nightmare to code in. RelaxNG is an 
alternative. We have <antdtd>; <antrelaxng> could dynamically do a relax 
schema.

>>> - getlibraries has no task definition that I can see....correct me if 
>>> I am wrong
>>
>>
>>
>> <libraries>
> 
> 
> yes, was looking for manual description of the task.

note the mention of that fact in the Ant1.7 todo list. I'd autogenerate 
one, but a lot of the fun comes from nested stuff, and the existing 
xdoclet doesnt do any coverage of nested things.

which reminds me, xdoclet-based docs need to cover datatypes and nested 
elements.

>>> - couldnt find any logging/listener tests under testcases ?
>>
>>
> sacre!
> 

I know. naughty. A lot of ant core lacks explicit tests, you have to 
write them before you make any changes, however. The reason: ant core 
predates junit and <junit>.

> 
>>> - any update on webdav task
>>
>>
>> We arent doing one.
> 
> 
> ok, this looks like a nice first submission for me then.
> 

maybe, but the best place for it is next to the webdav code. Assuming 
that is slide, that is where it should live. Makes versioning easier.


>> We cant move things. If you move stuff, you have to leave a facade 
>> class there. Why? Because we dont know who has subclassed or reused a 
>> class. A lot of people use ant programatically as well as in the XML 
>> layer, and we need to keep the  effective API as stable as the XML 
>> language. This is precisely why we are org.apache.tools.Ant
> 
> 
> agree, but there are a few techniques instead of just putting facade 
> classes...I agree with the statement you make later about backwards 
> compatibility...
> 
>> Launcher is special; it is its own JAR file, and has to locate and 
>> launch ant proper. it must be 100% self-contained.
> 
> 
> ok, thought this was the case.
> 
>>> Why  not move ?
>>> -main/org/apache/tools/bzip
>>> -main/org/apache/tools/bzip2
>>> -main/org/apache/tools/mail
>>> -main/org/apache/tools/tar
>>> -main/org/apache/tools/zip
>>> excuse my ignorance here (well if u never ask questions...)....are 
>>> these are org.apache.tools packages used by other apache projects
>>
>>
>>
>> I think they did come from other projects, and are designed for reuse 
>> outside ant.
> 
> 
> was wondering if there is a more appropriate apache project for these 
> org.apache.tools.* packages....

Well, they are all the generic tools stuff, 'utils' is the only other 
name that woudl make sense.

> 
>>> - why are these tests at toplevel ?
>>> testcases/org/apache/tools/mail
>>> testcases/org/apache/tools/tar
>>> testcases/org/apache/tools/zip
>>
>>
>>
>> maybe because the things they test are at that level.
> 
> 
> hehe, this is linked to why we have such top level packages...once again 
> history.
> 
>>
>> yes, there is lot of historical stuff. Eventually we will be crushed 
>> by the weight of backwards compatiblity.
>>
>> I have just updated the ant_task_guidelines doc in the repository, 
>> please take a look at this and see if it clarifies things.
> 
> 
> thx for taking the time to answer such tiresome questions....

no, it is good to ask. if you dont, then you dont learn.

One thing that would be really good in the short term (1.7 release) 
could be machine generated (xdoclet) docs. We need
-good coverage of nested elements, datatypes
-ability to provide as much info as the handwritten
-good generated HTML/PDF docs
-reuse of the generated XML by IDEs, if they so choose.
-reusable by third party projects. There are two projects I'm involved 
in that do use the existing xdoclet stuff, but it is pretty brittle and 
hard coded to ant's own project.

The other thing about doc improvements is that docs dont freeze until 
the ship date...

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