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From Greg Stein <>
Subject moving to a top-level project (was: [Ant nudge STATUS] Better than we thought...)
Date Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:54:19 GMT
On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 07:30:31AM -0400, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> The idea:
> would become a valid url


> ant would have its own PMC composed of whomever the committers decide (I 
> guess)

The Board passes a resolution establishing the PMC. That resolution defines
who the members of the PMC are, and who the Chair is. Since the Board has
very little visibility into the Ant community (i.e. who the stakeholders
are), we'd look to them to provide the Board with the slate of people for
the PMC.

My personal recommendation is for a larger PMC (e.g. not limited to N
people). In particular, the people who have been committers for a "long
while" (basically, the long-time stakeholders in Ant). Over time, the PMC
can vote to add new PMC members to itself.

> ant would report directly to the board

Yes. In particular, this means that the Chair provides a quarterly report to
the Board. For an example of these reports, see these Board meeting minutes:

Once the PMC is established with its resulting oversight, the PMC members
receive the legal protection of the ASF (should any problem arise via the
Ant software). There is quite a bit more related to having a PMC, but the
largest is really demonstrating that the ASF is providing a proper umbrella
and oversight to the code that it is developing.

> unresolved (but I think open...or maybe I'm wrong)
> relationship between ant and Jakarta (I'm assuming it would answer to 
> Jakarta only in name/branding)
> still valid url?

The Jakarta branding would/could/should still apply to Ant. Nothing to
change there. The old URL would simply redirect to the new
website. There certainly wouldn't have to be any changes in the community --
people still interact with whomever they want, on whatever mailing lists.

> Advantage:
> greater exposure

As a top-level project, Ant joins the others on the left-hand nav bar on (and other places).

> greater scope (maybe some cross polination with the C folk would 
> happen..I'd say others but I'm not sure TCL or PERL need build 
> tools...though I could be wrong)

Ant would no longer be officially constrained by the Jakarta charter. Ant
could set its own destiny.

> greater access to the members/board

Well, this has always been possible. But I would say that the Board,
members, ASF visitors, etc have greater access to the Ant community.

> Disadvantage
> reporting directly to the board (from a laziness perspective...I think 
> you have to actually "report" though I could be wrong)

Once per quarter is all. An email from the Ant PMC Chair to board@

> you'd be the first to make the transition

Well, we've got plenty of experience starting projects, so this probably
won't be too difficult.

> Ant is the project I personally would like to see be top level most.

Ant, Tomcat, Struts, Turbine, Avalon, etc all have a large communities
around them. Some of the XML projects like Cocoon and Xerces have a similar
situation. Moving these projects to the top-level can provide greater
visibility, and it removes any question on whether enough oversight exists
to provider the developers with the ASF's legal umbrella.

At this point, moving to be a top-level project is a choice for each project
to make (or to stay with XML or Jakarta).

The reorg@ mailing list is about coming up with recommendations for an
ASF-wide reorg (which could result in some recommended and/or mandated
changes), but that is still in process, and probably will be for a while.
And who really knows what the output of that process will be.

> Suggestion:
> Someone who understands the proposed process of this happening draft a 
> formal proposal to be voted on..

Each project can submit a proposed resolution to board@ for moving
themselves to a top-level project. For the form of such a resolution, see
the Board meeting minutes that I referenced above (where the Apache Commons
Project is established). This isn't an all-or-nothing which requires formal
proposal. Just a consensus within a project and submission of a resolution.
The Board would vote on it at the next meeting.


-- ... ASF Chairman ...

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