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From Peter Donald <dona...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Vote] Avalon-Framework integration
Date Wed, 09 May 2001 23:32:08 GMT
At 12:44  10/5/01 +1000, Conor MacNeill wrote:
>Pete,
>Huh?  Can you then please explain to me why on
>http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/framework/reuse-standards.html, one of the
>twleve rules of reuse (what frameworks promote) includes (and I assume this
>includes Avalon)
>"Class Heirarchies Should be Deep and Narrow"

It was a bug - Berin added it in before last www refresh - it has been
since modified in CVS ;)

>> As I said documentation will soon be fixed so that is a non issue.
>
>But it is an issue. We are designing Ant2 now. You especially are pushing
>on this. How can we base that on something that is undocumented when
>excellent documentation is seen as one of the fundamental requirements for
>being able to effectively use a framework. 

Right - and docs will be done by the time we get to implementing this and
you know this ... so whats your point?

>I don't see how people not
>involved in Avalon can effectively contribute.

Then thats because you closed your eyes. I have said time and time again
that the task developers will not be aware that Ant is Avalon aware. Nor
would the converter/listener/aspecthandler writers. As the most work in
Ant2 will be in the framework built upon the task API ... As all tasks are
unlikely to interact with avalon in any way ... 

But as you know that and I have said that a few times ... somethings amiss???

>So the example usage of Avalon to which you referred people, you now
>dismiss as quick hacks. Fair enough but then I have less to go on to
>evaluate how Avalon would be used and how it would be useful. My impression
>from myrmidon was that it leads to overabstraction, compression and lower
>readability.

overabstraction is actually something that I actually fight where
appropriate (see logging thread where it is you who is arguing for it). 

Compression is not an feature of the framework but of the code that uses
it. No framework stops you shooting your foot - some make it harder

>And how have they been tested in Avalon? You just stated above that "Well
>considering that Framework has been designed around Ant as a use case this
>won't be an issue for us". Considering the usage of Ant, I think it will
>get a fair amount of testing. Natural open source effect.

I don't understand your point here. Your saying the reason we shouldn't use
other projects is because ant can do it aswell?

>Anyway, your statements that you just quickly hacked stuff up seems to say
>to me that the framework is not that mature. Is that the case?

Err... not sure I follow your logic. If I were to write a proposal servlet
and it was quickly hacked together - does that imply that the servlet spec
is immature? Is THAT the logic you are using?

>I have other concerns. When you build code with a framework, it is like
>building a chair with two legs. It only works when the framework supplies
>the other two legs. 

Then you have been subjected to bad toolkits or at least different
frameworks. AvalonFramework doesn't do anything at all - by DESIGN. It
offers a frameowrk to work in or a schaffold for design etc. In technical
terms it is a level 2 toolkit with minimal content and maximal form.

>If you want to take that code somewhere else, the
>framework has to come along. That isn't always appropriate.

Actually the reason I want to use AvalonFramework is specifically to enable
ants movement and reuse between products. Since from ages ago this has been
the case. Considering that Avalon was specifically designed with this use
case in mind ...

>> BTW: If you think *this* is controvertial you should wait to see what I
>> have to say in future ;)
>>
>
>No worries, I'll have my -1s ready.

I would expect nothin more.

BTW I can't help but sense you have gone into attack mode. It seems like
you don't understand Avalon and thus decided easier to attack. The fact
that all your attacks miss the mark is another indicator that you lack
knowledge about domain. If you really *do* want to know something then ask
;) Think of it this way - Avalon does have a few holes - actually learn
about it and you will be able to "defeat" it easier if thats your real aim ;)

Cheers,

Pete

*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."                   |
|              - John Kenneth Galbraith               |
*-----------------------------------------------------*


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