Mailing-List: contact ant-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org; run by ezmlm
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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:46:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info
From: Jon Stevens <jon@latchkey.com>
To: <ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
Message-ID: <B688AF98.1E537%jon@latchkey.com>
In-Reply-To: <INEPIJABNNOAONEOKGBFCELICHAA.jimcook@iname.com>
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on 1/15/01 1:14 PM, "James Cook" <jimcook@iname.com> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:jon@latchkey.com]
>> Note: It wouldn't be called "Ant" then as the license does not
>> allow you to use the name.
> 
> But it would be, if the Apache Group released the rights to the name.

As a member of the ASF and a member of the Jakarta PMC and an active
developer on this project, I would vote -1 to this, so I don't see it
happening any time soon.

> I suppose that you are just offering that little tidbit for informations
> sake.

Yep. Just making sure that people understand that I'm very pro-forking. If
you think you have a better way of doing things and you don't think you can
accomplish them under the project that you are working within, I highly
suggest that you fork. Keep reading below...

> I was suggesting that a discussion should take place to move *Ant* out
> of Apache. This would be in the spirit of Duncan's "it's time for it to
> breathe on its own and not under the Jakarta project where it can be
> forgotten."

I'm all for that if that is what you think is the best thing for Ant within
the restrictions of the current environment.

> I have no desire to fork Ant. I want to present the committers of Ant 2.0
> with some new and fresh ideas with a design that is a little bit more
> radical than the one they are currently considering.

Great! Keep blowing your horn as loudly as you can. I really encourage that
as well. :-) Look at how much noise I tend to make. :-) I'm sure that you
can do it better than I can though as I tend to not be very politically
correct. :-)

A bit of history:

When I started working with Apache JServ (0.9.3 circa ~1997), I found it to
have many problems and bugs and I needed something that worked better. So, I
started submitting patches and bug reports, however, not only was the source
code not in a public CVS, but the mailing list it was on had a 2+ hour
response time. Also, at the time the ASF didn't even really have a
foundation for supporting multiple top level projects other than the HTTPd
project. Even worse was the fact that the primary developer of Apache JServ
was about to start college and completely dropped the project! You guys
think you have it so bad...but I digress...:-)

So, what did I do? I forked the project. I took the source code and checked
it into CVS on my own server (which is what has become working-dogs.com). I
took the mailing lists and hosted them myself! Why did I need to do this?
Because at the time, I couldn't even get Brian to respond to my emails! I
wanted the software to be under the ASF, but I couldn't do it. The
infrastructure didn't exist and I couldn't get anyone to listen to me! :-)
Sound familiar?

Eventually, Brian and others started to take notice that there was this Java
freak running around with ASF source code and mailing lists. Brian saw that
I had a lot of motivation to help out and make things better. Eventually, I
was voted in to the ASF as one of the first non-httpd and Java related
members. I was given access to the things that I needed to be given access
and things started improving. Brian and I even met in person to have dinner
a few times and talk about things. He saw that I wanted to be part of the
group and that I wanted to do the same cool stuff he was doing, but in the
Java context.

All of this discussion eventually led me to even quit the very successful
company that I co-founded to go work with Brian to share the dream. I
haven't regretted that at all.

Anyway, to make a long story short, the whole point of what I'm trying to
say is that you need to stand up for yourself and prove that you have what
it takes to become a member of the ASF if you want to be given the right to
be part of the ASF. Just being a committer on a project isn't enough. You
have to also have the fire in your belly (or a really bad itch to scratch)
to set things straight and do things the way that you think is right (or at
least help convince others to believe in your goals and support you).

I also think that is a lot of the reasons why the ASF tends to be looked on
by outsiders as being clique'ish. It is because all of the people who have
risen up to become members of the ASF are also the same people with that
burning desire to make great software and give it away so that others can
enjoy it. We all have a lot in common. Should we thus be faulted for that? I
don't think so.

I hope this email encourages you to do the following:

#1. Develop the best software you can.
#2. Work to join the ASF as a member. Make a name for yourself.
#3. Stand up for what you believe it. Follow your goals.

thanks,

-jon