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From: glennm@ca.ibm.com
Importance: Normal
Subject: Re: Whoa Bessie... Was -- Re: [Proposal] AntFarm
To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
Message-ID: <OFAF5D915A.EF1DDD94-ON852569BC.007365C9@torolab.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:11:15 -0500
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I have to say that I appreciate what you've said below, James.  I am
personally going to have to do some hard thinking about this situation.=

Actually, I think we all need to do some hard, calm thinking about thin=
gs
over the holidays.

Glenn McAllister
Software Developer. IBM Toronto Lab, (416) 448-3805
"An approximate answer to the right question is better than the
right answer to the wrong question." - John W. Tukey


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cc:
Subject:  Re: Whoa Bessie... Was -- Re: [Proposal] AntFarm


On 12/21/00 7:08 AM, "Siberski, Wolf" <Wolf.Siberski@tui.de> wrote:

> Quite the opposite. When James announced he would spend more time and=

effort
> to Ant, everyone applauded. The dispute started when he claimed to ha=
ve
> special rights to determine the direction of Ant. And, frankly, this =
is a
> disputable question (I'm appreciating a *lot* what he has done for Op=
en
Source
> in the meantime).
>
> Then James started claiming he had the right to dominate. Unfortunate=
ly
> instead of resolving that dispute directly, people were starting to
publish
> lots of proposals to block James's claims. We still discuss technical=

> arguments on the surface, while the real issue remains unsettled.

[this section is aimed more generally and not a direct response to Wolf=
]

I don't remember applause when I said I'd be back. In fact there was a =
lot
of fretting about revolutions and such. Then when I started publishing
stuff, people discounted positions that I've taken since day one in my
admittedly infrequent posts here. We got caught in a position of where
things that I had -1'd a long time ago where in, and by proposing to ch=
ange
them back I'm -1'd  -- along with the statement that I'm not worthy of
casting a -1. This discounting of ideas *did* put me in a foul mood to
begin
with. And I'm not above saying that that mood influenced the bluntness =
with
which I did make some of those posts.

And then we got like 4 proposals in rapid succession.

Quite frankly as far as I'm concerned I haven't been welcome here in a =
long
time. During the last year, the times when I've managed to pop up my he=
ad
and say "Hey, that's wrong and here's why" -- and then I'd get buried a=
nd
have to do something else and I'd come back and see that it was in anyw=
ays.

However, if you'll notice I didn't start writing emails to the effect t=
hat
I
had *some* privileges until the time when people said, not clearly, but=

essentially, "go away, you have no rights here". Then I started arguing=

that
I did have rights. And quite frankly, being told to go away is a slap i=
n
the
face. Admittedly I did throw weight around. I was peeved.

It was when I started even saying that I had some right to be here that=
 all
the hate came out.

So -- don=B9t take the above as any more of an argument. In fact, I'd
appreciate if you take it in a spirit of me explaining why I said some
things rather harshly and didn't come across very balanced and reasonab=
le..
For that I apologize. Maybe now that I've written a bit more, you might=

understand. If not, that's fine. I don't expect people to be clear head=
ed
after what's gone on.

However, that doesn't change my core assertion that I've got as much a
right
to be here as anyone -- and that I think I've got a right to Ant's "vis=
ion
thing". Other visions are fine, but they aren't Ant imo. I'll work *har=
d*
to
make sure that people have the chance they need to explore other ideas.=

Other thoughts on what a Java Based Build System is. Call 'em what you =
will
-- different ideas, forks, whatnot. Competition is good. But they *are*=

different. They *aren't* Ant.

I don't think the above paragraph is a claim to dictatorship or being a=

czar. However I'm *sure* that people will disagree with me on that.

> As I see it, one of the most fundamental differences between James's
vision
> for Ant and the vision of some other committers is that in James opin=
ion
Ant
> should focus on Java projects (with support for other uses seen as 'n=
ice
to
> have' at best), while others are heading towards a more general build=

tool or
> even task engine (with support for Java projects the most important
> requirement).

You've hit it on the head here. Yes, Ant is for Java projects. That's w=
hat
it's for. From the beginning.

> Honestly, I feel Your statements are more than
> biased, and You do no one a favour with it,
> not even James. Instead You have largened the
> gap between the 'Jakarta VIP group' and
> the 'Ant committers group', and that is a pity.

Be careful here. Pier is a Member of the Apache Software Foundation, as=
 is
Jon as is Craig as is Jason. The code and projects of the Apache Softwa=
re
Foundation are owned by it's members. The Members are responsible for t=
hose
projects. Currently the members delegate that responsibility to the PMC=
s.
The PMCs delegate from there. Ownership of the codebase is clear. It sa=
ys
=A9year Apache Software Foundation. Since the ASF is its members, its m=
embers
are essentially "shareholders" in the foundation, the code is owned
essentially by the Members.

So, therefore you might be better served by stating that your opinion i=
s
that his message has largened the gap between the "ASF Members who happ=
en
to
care about Ant and Jakarta" vs. the "Ant Committers Group".

Not that I like such a statement, it actually makes me sad to say it, b=
ut
I'm simply clarifying what you are really saying there.

> The next step should be getting consensus about vision and main
requirements.

I'm attempting this with putting together that document on my website.

.duncan

--
James Duncan Davidson
duncan@x180.net
                                                                  !try;=
 do
()


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