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From "Joshua Davis" <jsd2...@bellatlantic.net>
Subject RE: Did somebody say Shut up and Write? :)
Date Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:52:29 GMT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glen_Stampoultzis@ansett.com.au
> [mailto:Glen_Stampoultzis@ansett.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 11:24 PM
> To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Did somebody say Shut up and Write? :)
>
> I'm just a lurker/ant user so my opinion is probably not worth
> much.  I have to
> say though that I like this proposal.  To argue that it could potentially
> provide too much power seems silly.
>

That wasn't my point really.  I was just detecting a bit of potential
scope-creep, that's all.  Nothing about the internal design.

> Conceptually this proposal is much simpler than what we have
> today and certainly
> much simpler than JDD is proposing for Ant 2.
>
> I would agree that the extra flexibility provided by this proposal could
> potentially be abused, but don't forget that the commiters will
> still control
> the core of ant.  If a patch doesn't fit with their vision of ant
> it doesn't
> have to be applied.
>
> Thanks to everyone who has made Ant what it is today.  It's saved
> me hours of
> work in the time that I've used it and I look forward to seeing
> how it evolves.
>
> Merry Xmas,
>
> Glen Stampoultzis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "James Cook" <jimcook@iname.com> on 21/12/2000 11:39:52 PM
>
> Please respond to ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
>
> To:   ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> cc:    (bcc: Glen Stampoultzis/ITD/MEL/Ansett/AU)
> Subject:  Re: Did somebody say Shut up and Write? :)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Duncan Davidson" <duncan@x180.net>
> > > Genericity leads to the "trying to boil the ocean" problem.
> ANT is very
> > > vulnerable to this.  I would hate to see it devolve into some
> sort of wierdo
> > > XML scripting language.
>
> I think we have to take a big breath and step back. I position my
> proposal as a
> more "generalized" approach over Ant 1.x, and it is true that I
> have not decided
> to put Project and Target in "core" Ant. I think this is a very
> wise move, and I
> have only heard arguments against it phrased as "Well in my
> experience this is
> not a good idea". Perhaps we can put egos aside and debate the
> design based on
> its technical merits.
>
> The realization that Project and Target *are* Tasks greatly simplifies the
> development and maintenance of the execution engine. This seems to be a
> difficult perspective for those who grew up (or wrote) Ant 1.0.
> It seemed very
> clear to me, and it allows for a true "core", where Project and
> Target still
> exist, but as Tasks on top of the core. Seems pretty logical to
> me. In addition
> to supporting the build semantics of Ant 1.x, it doesn't restrict
> users from
> using Ant in different paradigms that we haven't even considered yet.
>
> I have not done anything truly radical. I have simply considered
> the "execution
> engine" as core, and moved Project and Target higher up in the
> framework. I
> think that anyone with good design skills and an objective eye,
> will see that
> this is the "right" design decision. Ant actually becomes more
> powerful and
> flexible by simply moving the "core" demarcation point one step
> closer to the
> execution engine/
>
> As far as Joshua's claim that by infusing Ant with this amount of
> power could
> "devolve [Ant] into some sort of weirdo XML scripting language."
> I fully concur.
> I *can* see this happening. Remove the word "weirdo", and to some
> degree "XML",
> and I think this would be a wonderful evolution. Ant is a wonderful
> cross-platform build tool, and it should always be so. frANTic
> does nothing to
> thwart this direction. It simply and effectively defines an Ant
> core that is
> easy to maintain, build Tasks upon, integrate scripting, scope
> parameters, and
> extend.
>
> jim
>
>
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