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From Peter Donald <>
Subject Re: Whoa Bessie... Was -- Re: [Proposal] AntFarm
Date Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:11:56 GMT
At 11:56  18/12/00 -0800, James Duncan Davidson wrote:
>> Personally I don't see it. If you try to ascend to any such position I will
>> block such a move with a -1. The only way it will be raised to +0/1 is
if you
>> a> convince the PMC to invent a rule to kick out committers and do it
>> b> earn the privlidge
>Ok. So right there you are saying that I have no rights here. The fact that
>I dreamed up this little hack means nothing. Fine.

you have the same rights as everyone else. True you get a little more karma
because you dreamed it up but you play by the rules of meritocracy aswell.
If you want to change the rules of Apache then feel free to your PMC but
until then you have to abide by them.

>Speaking of PMC's -- there are no rules defined about how to deal with
>things like this. It hasn't happened. Although apparently things are getting
>a little heated on the tomcat-dev mailing list right now as well. I will say
>that the PMC of Jakarta owns this project and Tomcat and the rest of the
>projects under the Jakarta umbrella. That's their charter.


>> The more I here about this the more concerned I get. Every time you need a
>> motivation for something you point to the fact that you are writing a book
>> about ant. I can not shake the feeling that the only reason you came back
>> to ant was because you were asked to write the book. I question "If that
>> book offer never came in would you be here now?"
>Ok, so I'll shut up about the book. The last thing that I'll say is that it
>made me realize that Ant was something cool. And of course now I'm looking
>at the prospect of having to walk away from it because the developer
>community here might just say go to hell. That¹s a great reward for putting
>out a good project on the net. Not.

Who said you have to walk away for it? It is you who seemingly gave the
ultimatim - "It's my way or the highway". I don't ask anything more than
you live by the rules of Apache. If you feel they are not fair then get
them changed. 

If the only way you will contribute is with you as head honcho then I find
that depressing in more ways than one. However I also strongly believe in
the community that has built around ant. You would tear it down and rebuild
it in your image - not something I find an attractive prospect. 

If you want to lead then start acting like a leader - start contributing,
help with patches, start advising more on ant-user and try to be more
constructive with your criticism. 

Your reward for putting it out was all credit you aquired - just like
everyone else who has helped maintain it and let it go. If you wanted to
sit up on high then Apache was probably not the place for you to opensource
it considering it is based on merit. However I feel no pity for you because
being on the PMC you know quite well how these projects operate.

>> Is that a fair assesment - maybe - maybe not but it is the opinion that
>> to be gaining more ground. I have no problem with you profiting from
your idea
>> but when you abandoned the project you gave up your special status. You now
>> have to earn the right to lead just like any other committer.
>Did I unsubscribe from the list? No. Did I try to poke my head in when I
>could and give some advice? Yes. Was it enough? No. Did I say "Bye guys! I'm
>out of here!"?

whats your point ?


| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."                   |
|              - John Kenneth Galbraith               |

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