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From Tom Cook <tc...@ardec.com.au>
Subject RE: Using old ant.jar in build.bat?
Date Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:37:24 GMT
<rant>
Jose  Alberto Fernandez writes:
 > > From: Conor MacNeill [mailto:conor@cortexebusiness.com.au]
 > > 
 > > 
 > > >[....]
 > > > If the Apache experience is any good example, a lot of people
 > > > download the sources and compile them themselves even though
 > > > they have no plans what so ever of modifying the code.
 > > > Why would it be ten times more difficult for these people than
 > > > for those downloading the binaries only?
 > > >
 > > Jose,
 > > 
 > > If you download an Apache module, do you expect it to include 
 > > the Apache
 > > source code necessary to build it? To build the module you 
 > > have to put all
 > > the pieces in place. As another example look at
 > > http://www.php.net/FAQ.php#3.3 Would you expect all of these 
 > > libraries to be
 > > in PHP's CVS tree? My point is that for many things you 
 > > install and build on
 > > your system there are dependencies which you need to satisfy.
 > > 
 > 
 > The analogy is not correct, the case of an Apache module (in my opinion)
 > is equivalent to that of an optional task. And I do not expect having
 > ANT shipped with every optional tag that someone may have written.

Perhaps the apache module is not correct, but the general idea is. To
install the w3c html validator, I need perl, as well as about six perl
modules. Perl is (on Linux) a fairly standard system service. The six
modules are not. They are freely available on the web, but they are
not standard options on a (say) RedHat install. To take another
example, OpenGL things on Linux require the Mesa library. Anything
which uses Motif require Lesstif. Should the source of the perl
modules come with the HTML validator? Should the Lesstif source be
included in my xgdb distro? Certainly not. They should be installed by
the user before they can install the software. In exactly the same
way, jaxp.jar and parser.jar are third-party shared library objects,
and to include them in every app which uses them is to impose gross
redundancy on the user. All you gain is a little convenience;
downloading the jars and putting them on your classpath is *not*
*that* *hard* - especially when your target audience is Java
developers!

 > My only problem is with the parts of ANT that are required for ANT
 > to work at all. I.e., jaxp.jar et al. Notice that ANT ships xml.jar
 > with it and therefore is added to the classpath as part of the ANT script
 > on the other hand, JAXP is not becase the script does not know where
 > it may be installed. If we knew it will always be present in ant/lib
 > then they could be added transparently. And the CLASSPATH would be left
 > alone.

Where would you be without libc.so? Do you expect it's source in every
source download you use?

 > > BTW I put this section into the doco so people would be aware of the
 > > dependencies. It probably needs to be updated in light of the 
 > > bundling of
 > > the jaxp stuff with the binary distribution. If this section 
 > > is not a good
 > > idea, let us know and we can change it. Also, in the future it should
 > > probably point people to Xerxes.
 > > 
 > 
 > YES, if that is all that is needed. I jar is better than 2.

Again, note point to, not include. Xerxes is a separate project, and
it's source does not belong in the ant project. Or it's
executable. IMHO ant does not really belong in a tomcat download, but
that's another flamewar.

 > > Thoughts?
 > > 
 > > Conor
 > > 
 > 
 > I understand from Ruby's message the problem of version maintainability
 > by having fix versions of other projects in ANT's source control.
 > But I guess there has to be an intermediate arangement that is easy
 > and simple. That's all I ask.

Again, downloading two files and putting them in your classpath is not
a mammoth ask.
</rant>

Regards
Tom
-- 
Tom Cook - Software Engineer

"The brain is a wonderful organ. It starts functioning the moment you get
up in the morning, and does not stop until you get into the office."
	- Robert Frost

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