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From Shameera Rathnayaka <shameerai...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Evaluate Suitable Scientific Workflow Language for Airavata.
Date Sat, 18 Oct 2014 23:03:06 GMT
Hi Supun,

I think we were in two context, because I as suggesting a way to serialize
and deserialize the workflow description while you are suggesting to
implement
some kind of workflow interpreter using Python, where Python client can
send
thrift calls to Airavata server to run the application. I can see with your
suggested
approach we can control the workflow execution process from client side
which
make it easy to implement workflow debugger.As you mentioned this is a
major change
to Airavata. So we should neatly think as this will change our existing
architecture.

Still if someone need to use different language java, php, JS etc ... to
run the same
workflow which generated by Python, we need a language independent workflow
description.
My initial question was what is the best language for this?. But as I have
explained in
one of my previous reply, It is not matter what language we used Either we
can use
XML or JSON to write this description, what matters is how easy to generate
workflow with the provided API. Hence it would be great to have set of neat
APIs in
different languages.

Thanks,
Shameera.


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Supun Kamburugamuva <supun06@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Shameera,
>
> Using python is a radical approach for workflow I think. But I believe this
> is a very beautiful and new approach.Here is a possible scenario for
> implementation and running using a Python based library.
>
> The Python library facilitates the creation of Applications and submitting
> them to Airavata for execution. The underlying functionality is exactly
> similar to what Java clients provides.The only difference is that, Python
> library should have a more fluent API than Java for easy creation of
> workflows. We can generate the Python clients that talk to Airavata server
> using Thrift.
>
> Here is an example off the top of my head to a Python script created by
> user for a Workflow. This is a very crude example and we need to come up
> with a much better API if we are going to go along this path. First we need
> to write a Python script that can execute a workflow using Airavata.
>
> import airavata
>
> host = Host("localhost", ....)
> app1 = Application(host, ....)
> app2 = Application(host, ....)
>
> # we will connect these applications as a workflow using some topology
> builder or other constructs
>
> wb = WorkFlowBuilder()
> wb.setApp("name1", app1)
> # you can do a simple output transformation here etc
>
> # connects the input of app1 to app2 etc
> wb.setApp("name2", app2).connectInput("name1")
>
> wb.submit()
>
> Now we can load this Python script from XBaya. When XBaya loads this script
> the Python script can output an XML configuration of the topology, XBaya
> can render. There are other ways like directly executing the Python script
> from command line and connecting XBaya indirectly as well. Now you can run
> the workflow from XBaya. Running the Workflow means just executing the
> Python script.
>
> XBaya gets the notifications through messaging and update the UI
> accordingly.
>
> The users need to write the Python script by hand. XBaya cannot create the
> script. Because workflow language is an actual python program the benefits
> are immense. For example user can do workflow steering in the workflow
> itself by subscribing to messages from Airavata.
>
> Thanks,
> Supun..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Shameera Rathnayaka <
> shameerainfo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Supun,
> >
> > I meant to say JS is a well-known client side scripting language i have
> > messed scripting part. Even we use Python, ultimately we should convert
> > this to java model in server side, somehow we need to serialized python
> > representation to the language which java can parse and generate that
> > model. In this case we need to parse python script in java isn't it? I am
> > not exactly clear how you suggesting to use python here. More details on
> > how end system works if we use Python would be great help to clearly
> > understand your points.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Shameera.
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:00 AM, Chris Mattmann <
> chris.mattmann@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Have you guys considered using JCC [1] as a means
> > > to expose the workflow API currently in Java as a
> > > Python API?
> > >
> > > We are exploring its use in OODT, and we have already
> > > created a Tika [2] JCC-based python API.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > [1] http://lucene.apache.org/pylucene/jcc/
> > > [2] http://github.com/chrismattmann/tika-python/
> > >
> > > ------------------------
> > > Chris Mattmann
> > > chris.mattmann@gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Supun Kamburugamuva <supun06@gmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: <dev@oodt.apache.org>
> > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2014 at 3:43 PM
> > > To: dev <dev@airavata.apache.org>
> > > Cc: "Alek Jones (Indiana)" <alekny7@gmail.com>, Suresh Marru
> > > <smarru@apache.org>, "architecture@airavata.apache.org"
> > > <architecture@airavata.apache.org>, "dev@oodt.apache.org"
> > > <dev@oodt.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: Evaluate Suitable Scientific Workflow Language for
> Airavata.
> > >
> > > >Once we had an offline discussion about the Airavata Workflow language
> > > >(with Milinda, Saliya and Shameera). In that discussion one thing came
> > out
> > > >was why we need to invent a different language when a simple library
> > like
> > > >Python will full fill of Airavata requirements.
> > > >
> > > >There are many benefits in using a Python library as the API for
> > > >controlling Airavata workflows.
> > > >
> > > >1. It is a library, gives the ultimate control over the execution and
> it
> > > >can be simpler than any domain specific language that we can come with
> > > >like
> > > >XML, JSON etc
> > > >2. Most people use python and can learn it easily than any Domain
> > specific
> > > >language
> > > >3. You can easily create a Python library for Airavata because all the
> > > >APIs
> > > >are thrift based.
> > > >4. If you design the constructs correctly you can plug an XBaya.
> > > >
> > > >Any thoughts?
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Supun..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Supun Kamburugamuva <
> supun06@gmail.com
> > >
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Shameera,
> > > >>
> > > >> Why you prefer JavaScript over a language like Python?
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> Supun..
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Shameera Rathnayaka <
> > > >> shameerainfo@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> ​Hi,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> First of all thanks everyone for giving valuable inputs. After
> doing
> > > >>>some
> > > >>> background search and talking to different people in the University
> > > >>>who has
> > > >>> used different workflow languages, I myself convinced that
> > introducing
> > > >>>an
> > > >>> another workflow language is not what actually they need. By
> changing
> > > >>> exiting workflow language to another will not solve problems.
What
> > they
> > > >>> asking is a easy way to construct the workflows. Indirectly what
> they
> > > >>> asking for a sort of API which they can use to generate the
> workflows
> > > >>>and
> > > >>> run it. Correct me if i am wrong here.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As most of above replies depict,  if we can get a simple API,
as an
> > > >>> example, for a web based application, JavaScript API would be
a
> good
> > > >>> solution, and probably JSON would be a good candidate for language,
> > > >>>instead
> > > >>> of XML.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Airavata community already have started to implement web base
GUI.
> > > >>>Hence
> > > >>> introducing a JSON base JavaScript API would be great help. WDYT?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks,
> > > >>> Shameera.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Aleksander Slominski (NY) <
> > > >>> alekny7@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> it is not dataflow instead focused on orchestrating REST services
> > but
> > > >>>> you may find it useful datapoint - we created worfklow service
> that
> > > >>>>uses
> > > >>>> natively JavaScript and JSON to describe what happens during
> > workflow
> > > >>>> execution:
> > > >>>>
> > > https://www.ng.bluemix.net/docs/#services/workflow/index.html#coewf002
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> HTH,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Alek
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Suresh Marru <smarru@apache.org>
> > > >>>>wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Hi Chris,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Great to hear OODT community will be interested in adopting
a
> JSON
> > > >>>>> based workflow language and potentially a web based composer
as
> > well.
> > > >>>>> Airavata previously had BPEL support initially through
a home
> grown
> > > >>>>> implementation [1] by Alek Slominski and later through
Apache ODE
> > > >>>>>[2]. Also
> > > >>>>> a white paper [3] by Alek on this topic is an interesting
read.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I am of the same opinion that we should adopt something
more
> modern
> > > >>>>>as
> > > >>>>> the challenges from scientific workflows seems to be converging
> > with
> > > >>>>>the
> > > >>>>> data flow patterns in business workflows.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It will be great if we can all compile a list of potential
> > candidates
> > > >>>>> and hack them through.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Suresh
> > > >>>>> [1] -
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-84628-757-2_14#page-1
> > > >>>>> [2] -
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > http://www.academia.edu/1485773/Experience_with_adapting_a_WS-BPEL_run
> > > >>>>>time_for_eScience_workflows
> > > >>>>> [3] -
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > http://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/services/2010/4129/00/4129a32
> > > >>>>>6.pdf
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Sep 18, 2014, at 1:15 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980)
<
> > > >>>>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > Hi Guys,
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> > I've been interested in this too - we don't per have
a specific
> > > >>>>> > OODT workflow language, but we specific workflows
using XML,
> and
> > > >>>>> > other configuration (we are also thinking of moving
to JSON for
> > > >>>>> > this).
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> > In the past I've also looked at YAWL and BPEL - both
seem
> complex
> > > >>>>> > to me.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> > I wonder at the end of the day if we should adopt
something
> more
> > > >>>>> > modern like PIG or some other data flow type of language
(PIG
> > > >>>>> > is really neat).
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> > Cheers,
> > > >>>>> > Chris
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > >>>>> > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> > > >>>>> > Chief Architect
> > > >>>>> > Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section
(398)
> > > >>>>> > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109
USA
> > > >>>>> > Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
> > > >>>>> > Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
> > > >>>>> > WWW:  http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> > > >>>>> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > >>>>> > Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
> > > >>>>> > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
90089 USA
> > > >>>>> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>> > From: Shameera Rathnayaka <shameerainfo@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>> > Reply-To: "architecture@airavata.apache.org"
> > > >>>>> > <architecture@airavata.apache.org>
> > > >>>>> > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2014 8:26 AM
> > > >>>>> > To: "architecture@airavata.apache.org" <
> > > >>>>> architecture@airavata.apache.org>,
> > > >>>>> > dev <dev@airavata.apache.org>
> > > >>>>> > Subject: Evaluate Suitable Scientific Workflow Language
for
> > > >>>>>Airavata.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >> Hi All,
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> As we all know Airavata has its own workflow
language call
> XWF.
> > > >>>>>When
> > > >>>>> XWF
> > > >>>>> >> was introduced, main focus points are interoperability
and
> > > >>>>> convertibility.
> > > >>>>> >> But with years of experience it is convinced
that above
> > > >>>>>requirements
> > > >>>>> are
> > > >>>>> >> not really useful when we come to real world
use cases. And
> XWF
> > is
> > > >>>>> XML
> > > >>>>> >> based bulky language where we attache WSDLs and
Workflow image
> > it
> > > >>>>> self.
> > > >>>>> >> But
> > > >>>>> >> with the recent changes WSDL part is being removed
from XWF.
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> It is worth to evaluate handy Scientific workflow
languages in
> > > >>>>> industry
> > > >>>>> >> and
> > > >>>>> >> find out pros and cons, at the end of this evaluation
we need
> to
> > > >>>>> come up
> > > >>>>> >> with idea how we should improve Airavata workflow
language,
> > either
> > > >>>>> we can
> > > >>>>> >> improve existing XWF language, totally change
to a new
> language
> > > >>>>> available
> > > >>>>> >> in industry or write a new light weight language.
Basic
> > > >>>>>requirements
> > > >>>>> that
> > > >>>>> >> we expect from new improvement are, high usability,
flexible,
> > > >>>>>light
> > > >>>>> weight
> > > >>>>> >> and real time monitoring support. As you can
see above
> > > >>>>>requirements
> > > >>>>> are
> > > >>>>> >> not
> > > >>>>> >> direct comes with workflow languages but we need
workflow
> > language
> > > >>>>> which
> > > >>>>> >> help to support above requirements.
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> After reading few papers and googling, initially
i have come
> up
> > > >>>>>with
> > > >>>>> >> following three existing languages,
> > > >>>>> >> 1. YAWL <http://www.yawlfoundation.org/>
> > > >>>>> >> 2. WS-BPEL
> > > >>>>> >> ​3. SIDL
> > > >>>>> >> <
> > http://computation.llnl.gov/casc/components/index.html#page=home
> > > >
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> In my opinion SIDL is more familiar with scientific
domain,
> > > >>>>> Radical-SAGA
> > > >>>>> >> also uses slightly modified version of SIDL.
Other than above
> > > >>>>>three
> > > >>>>> >> languages we can come up with simple workflow
language base on
> > > >>>>> json(or
> > > >>>>> >> yaml) which support all our requirements for
some extends.
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> It would be grate if I can get more input regarding
the
> $Subject
> > > >>>>> form the
> > > >>>>> >> airavata community. You all are more than welcome
to provide
> any
> > > >>>>> type of
> > > >>>>> >> suggestions.
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> Thanks,
> > > >>>>> >> Shameera.
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> ​
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> --
> > > >>>>> >> Best Regards,
> > > >>>>> >> Shameera Rathnayaka.
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> email: shameera AT apache.org , shameerainfo
AT gmail.com
> > > >>>>> >> Blog : http://shameerarathnayaka.blogspot.com/
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> The best way to predict the future is to invent it - Alan
Kay
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Best Regards,
> > > >>> Shameera Rathnayaka.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> email: shameera AT apache.org , shameerainfo AT gmail.com
> > > >>> Blog : http://shameerarathnayaka.blogspot.com/
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Supun Kamburugamuva
> > > >> Member, Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org
> > > >> E-mail: supun06@gmail.com;  Mobile: +1 812 369 6762
> > > >> Blog: http://supunk.blogspot.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Supun Kamburugamuva
> > > >Member, Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org
> > > >E-mail: supun06@gmail.com;  Mobile: +1 812 369 6762
> > > >Blog: http://supunk.blogspot.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best Regards,
> > Shameera Rathnayaka.
> >
> > email: shameera AT apache.org , shameerainfo AT gmail.com
> > Blog : http://shameerarathnayaka.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Supun Kamburugamuva
> Member, Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org
> E-mail: supun06@gmail.com;  Mobile: +1 812 369 6762
> Blog: http://supunk.blogspot.com
>



-- 
Best Regards,
Shameera Rathnayaka.

email: shameera AT apache.org , shameerainfo AT gmail.com
Blog : http://shameerarathnayaka.blogspot.com/

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