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From Clebert Suconic <clebert.suco...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Webconsole deprecation
Date Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:27:05 GMT
This is not about opinions.. it's a fact.. people either fix it.. .or
deprecate it! Simple!


If no one is fixing it.. it will be deprecated.. I don't think this
even requires a voting as this is based in facts.. not opinions.

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Arthur Naseef <art@amlinv.com> wrote:
> Hey Chris - I looked for you in the IRC channel but didn't see you (sorry
> if I missed you).
>
> I'd like to understand the concerns and talk to you about addressing them.
>
> Can you either enumerate the big concerns here, or give me a shout?  IRC or
> email work.
>
> Art
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Christopher Shannon <
> christopher.l.shannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Yes it is mostly a people problem but that doesn't make it any less of
>> a problem.  It's still a big problem. Apache is a volunteer
>> organization.  You can't make anyone support something they don't want
>> to.  The reality is that no one wants to maintain it, there's been
>> several years of evidence to prove that.
>>
>> I would rather deprecate something and make it known it's not
>> maintained so at least people are aware of the risks involved with
>> using unmaintained software versus leaving things status quo and
>> pretending everything is fine when it isn't.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Paul Gale <paul.n.gale@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > If the definition of 'the problem' is that no committers are willing to
>> > maintain the web console then that's an internal leadership problem of
>> the
>> > group. Please don't try to 'fix' that by making it a problem for end
>> users
>> > by deprecating/removing it. Why not address the problem of lack of
>> interest
>> > from a leadership perspective?
>> >
>> > So, if at any time in the future some popular feature/component of
>> ActiveMQ
>> > stops being maintained owing to lack of interest by committers, should
>> that
>> > necessarily qualify it to become deprecated/removed? I don't think so. As
>> > an end user with hundreds of deployed instances of ActiveMQ in Production
>> > it would be very annoying if the web console were to be deprecated. Let's
>> > face it when someone wants it to be 'deprecated' they just want to move
>> it
>> > one step closer to be being 'removed.' As an end user we've been screwed
>> > over a few times in the past with such decisions were made on a whim
>> > because something was convenient for committers; changing the use of
>> > activemq-all.jar springs to mind - that was big for us. Each time these
>> > incidents happen it only illustrates further that some committers are out
>> > of touch with the user base, or perhaps they're not but have a different
>> > agenda.
>> >
>> > AFAIK there doesn't appear to be a technical impediment for supporting
>> the
>> > web console, rather it seems to be a political one. It's a people
>> problem.
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Justin Bertram <jbertram@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> > What changed since last opening this question?
>> >>
>> >> My understanding (based on Chris' email) is that nothing has changed
>> since
>> >> the last discussion, and that is precisely the problem.
>> >>
>> >> > What problems are being solved by removing it?
>> >>
>> >> I believe Chris is proposing that it be deprecated and disabled by
>> default
>> >> rather than removed. The problem solved by this is ostensibly that users
>> >> would understand it is no longer maintained (i.e. de facto truth) and
>> that
>> >> there are risks associated with enabling it.
>> >>
>> >> > How will the important functions provided by the WebConsole be
>> provided
>> >> to end-users?
>> >>
>> >> Wouldn't users who want the functions provided by the web console could
>> >> still have them by enabling it (assuming they're willing to take the
>> >> associated risks)?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Justin
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 11:40 AM, Arthur Naseef <art@amlinv.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > The ActiveMQ WebConsole fills a very important role in the solution.
>> >> >
>> >> > So here are the questions coming to mind when reading the request for
>> >> > deprecation:
>> >> >
>> >> >    1. What changed since last opening this question?
>> >> >    2. What problems are being solved by removing it?
>> >> >    3. How will the important functions provided by the WebConsole be
>> >> >    provided to end-users?
>> >> >
>> >> > Here are some of the important functions:
>> >> >
>> >> >    - Quick view of broker status after initial installation of broker,
>> >> >    helpful for new installations and for those learning to use the
>> broker
>> >> > for
>> >> >    the first time.
>> >> >       - Greatly reduces time to get started using the broker
>> effectively
>> >> >    - Zero configuration, out-of-the-box Management Console
>> >> >    - Access to critical broker details, including:
>> >> >       - memory and store usage
>> >> >       - listing of queues and topics
>> >> >       - viewing connections to the broker
>> >> >       - viewing NOB connections
>> >> >    - Handy test utilities
>> >> >       - Browse queue contents
>> >> >       - Send messages
>> >> >    - Easy to instruct users on it's use to obtain important details
>> when
>> >> >    providing remote support
>> >> >
>> >> > It would be great to have a meaningful discussion that moves us
>> forward.
>> >> > Right now, this feels to me like a simple re-hash of the old
>> discussion.
>> >> >
>> >> > Art
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Christopher Shannon <
>> >> > christopher.l.shannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > I think it's time to have the yearly web console deprecation or
>> >> > > removal conversation.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I realize this conversation has been had multiple times in the
past
>> >> > > already.  However, since those conversations have taken place
there
>> >> > > has still been no effort by anyone to maintain the webconsole
for
>> >> > > several years.  There continues to be reported bugs against the
web
>> >> > > console in jira and they are ignored.  People also submit PRs
to
>> >> > > improve the webconsole and they are ignored.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In the past there has been a lot of pushback against outright
>> removal
>> >> > > of the webconsole because there are people who find it useful.
 I
>> >> > > think that is fair so maybe a better approach would be to go the
>> >> > > LevelDB route.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Perhaps we could just make a note on the website that it is not
>> >> > > maintained anymore and is deprecated (and also disable it by
>> default)
>> >> > > but still include it so users have the option to turn it on if
they
>> >> > > want?
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
>>



-- 
Clebert Suconic

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