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From Christopher Shannon <christopher.l.shan...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Webconsole deprecation
Date Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:36:45 GMT
Art,

I think my main concern was stated in my first email and Justin
re-iterated everything and is spot on.  The webconsole is just simply
not maintained anymore which is why I proposed deprecating it.

Chris

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Clebert Suconic
<clebert.suconic@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is not about opinions.. it's a fact.. people either fix it.. .or
> deprecate it! Simple!
>
>
> If no one is fixing it.. it will be deprecated.. I don't think this
> even requires a voting as this is based in facts.. not opinions.
>
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Arthur Naseef <art@amlinv.com> wrote:
>> Hey Chris - I looked for you in the IRC channel but didn't see you (sorry
>> if I missed you).
>>
>> I'd like to understand the concerns and talk to you about addressing them.
>>
>> Can you either enumerate the big concerns here, or give me a shout?  IRC or
>> email work.
>>
>> Art
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Christopher Shannon <
>> christopher.l.shannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> Yes it is mostly a people problem but that doesn't make it any less of
>>> a problem.  It's still a big problem. Apache is a volunteer
>>> organization.  You can't make anyone support something they don't want
>>> to.  The reality is that no one wants to maintain it, there's been
>>> several years of evidence to prove that.
>>>
>>> I would rather deprecate something and make it known it's not
>>> maintained so at least people are aware of the risks involved with
>>> using unmaintained software versus leaving things status quo and
>>> pretending everything is fine when it isn't.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Paul Gale <paul.n.gale@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > If the definition of 'the problem' is that no committers are willing to
>>> > maintain the web console then that's an internal leadership problem of
>>> the
>>> > group. Please don't try to 'fix' that by making it a problem for end
>>> users
>>> > by deprecating/removing it. Why not address the problem of lack of
>>> interest
>>> > from a leadership perspective?
>>> >
>>> > So, if at any time in the future some popular feature/component of
>>> ActiveMQ
>>> > stops being maintained owing to lack of interest by committers, should
>>> that
>>> > necessarily qualify it to become deprecated/removed? I don't think so. As
>>> > an end user with hundreds of deployed instances of ActiveMQ in Production
>>> > it would be very annoying if the web console were to be deprecated. Let's
>>> > face it when someone wants it to be 'deprecated' they just want to move
>>> it
>>> > one step closer to be being 'removed.' As an end user we've been screwed
>>> > over a few times in the past with such decisions were made on a whim
>>> > because something was convenient for committers; changing the use of
>>> > activemq-all.jar springs to mind - that was big for us. Each time these
>>> > incidents happen it only illustrates further that some committers are out
>>> > of touch with the user base, or perhaps they're not but have a different
>>> > agenda.
>>> >
>>> > AFAIK there doesn't appear to be a technical impediment for supporting
>>> the
>>> > web console, rather it seems to be a political one. It's a people
>>> problem.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Paul
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Justin Bertram <jbertram@apache.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> > What changed since last opening this question?
>>> >>
>>> >> My understanding (based on Chris' email) is that nothing has changed
>>> since
>>> >> the last discussion, and that is precisely the problem.
>>> >>
>>> >> > What problems are being solved by removing it?
>>> >>
>>> >> I believe Chris is proposing that it be deprecated and disabled by
>>> default
>>> >> rather than removed. The problem solved by this is ostensibly that users
>>> >> would understand it is no longer maintained (i.e. de facto truth) and
>>> that
>>> >> there are risks associated with enabling it.
>>> >>
>>> >> > How will the important functions provided by the WebConsole be
>>> provided
>>> >> to end-users?
>>> >>
>>> >> Wouldn't users who want the functions provided by the web console could
>>> >> still have them by enabling it (assuming they're willing to take the
>>> >> associated risks)?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Justin
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 11:40 AM, Arthur Naseef <art@amlinv.com>
wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > The ActiveMQ WebConsole fills a very important role in the solution.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > So here are the questions coming to mind when reading the request
for
>>> >> > deprecation:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >    1. What changed since last opening this question?
>>> >> >    2. What problems are being solved by removing it?
>>> >> >    3. How will the important functions provided by the WebConsole
be
>>> >> >    provided to end-users?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Here are some of the important functions:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >    - Quick view of broker status after initial installation of
broker,
>>> >> >    helpful for new installations and for those learning to use
the
>>> broker
>>> >> > for
>>> >> >    the first time.
>>> >> >       - Greatly reduces time to get started using the broker
>>> effectively
>>> >> >    - Zero configuration, out-of-the-box Management Console
>>> >> >    - Access to critical broker details, including:
>>> >> >       - memory and store usage
>>> >> >       - listing of queues and topics
>>> >> >       - viewing connections to the broker
>>> >> >       - viewing NOB connections
>>> >> >    - Handy test utilities
>>> >> >       - Browse queue contents
>>> >> >       - Send messages
>>> >> >    - Easy to instruct users on it's use to obtain important details
>>> when
>>> >> >    providing remote support
>>> >> >
>>> >> > It would be great to have a meaningful discussion that moves us
>>> forward.
>>> >> > Right now, this feels to me like a simple re-hash of the old
>>> discussion.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Art
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Christopher Shannon <
>>> >> > christopher.l.shannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > I think it's time to have the yearly web console deprecation
or
>>> >> > > removal conversation.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I realize this conversation has been had multiple times in
the past
>>> >> > > already.  However, since those conversations have taken place
there
>>> >> > > has still been no effort by anyone to maintain the webconsole
for
>>> >> > > several years.  There continues to be reported bugs against
the web
>>> >> > > console in jira and they are ignored.  People also submit
PRs to
>>> >> > > improve the webconsole and they are ignored.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > In the past there has been a lot of pushback against outright
>>> removal
>>> >> > > of the webconsole because there are people who find it useful.
 I
>>> >> > > think that is fair so maybe a better approach would be to
go the
>>> >> > > LevelDB route.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Perhaps we could just make a note on the website that it is
not
>>> >> > > maintained anymore and is deprecated (and also disable it
by
>>> default)
>>> >> > > but still include it so users have the option to turn it on
if they
>>> >> > > want?
>>> >> > >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic

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