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From Clebert Suconic <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Custom Object Serialisation Support
Date Thu, 01 Jun 2017 19:23:57 GMT
I honestly don't see an issue on making the write and readObject a
pluggable operation. It's a simple change on the API at

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:09 PM, Michael André Pearce
<> wrote:
> This is why the proposal is for a pluggable interface to declared to convert from Object
to byte[] and back not saying one moment Artemis owns or has all the implementations.
> Anyhow your points are taken on board, we def need to agree on a well defined and clean
api, to avoid exactly that situation.
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On 1 Jun 2017, at 17:59, Timothy Bish <> wrote:
>>> On 06/01/2017 12:49 PM, Michael André Pearce wrote:
>>> Not at all that's the point
>>> Application code uses JMS Api. The serdes are just defined/declared into the
connection factory typically the only part of the app exposed to any particulars about the
broker implementation detail.
>>> Yes we can do converter.convert(object) in code, this is just manual code in
the app space.
>>>  but like with kafka and I have to stress it's successfulness is that that converter
is in it's api of the product. Which means a lot of companies reuse a few single implementations
and a good eco system occurs like with schema registry (Eg we use confluents serdes we don't
code out own)
>> Which is exactly what camel can solve and without starting down the slippery slop
of packing the same data format conversions Camel can already handle into the Artemis code
base as will happen as each user wants their own preferred data format.
>> Similar things were tried in the ActiveMQ 5.x code and abandoned over time so I'd
like to avoid that if possible.
>> Anyway, I've raised my objection.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> On 1 Jun 2017, at 17:39, Timothy Bish <> wrote:
>>>>> On 06/01/2017 12:19 PM, Michael André Pearce wrote:
>>>>> Agreed it does as an EAI pattern or flow, But I have to code/define into
Camel's dsl, it does JMS as much as our custom app code would it consumes the JMS api.
>>>> So you still need to code / define the serialization then and include that
in you application which means the difference between some connection.setSerializationThing()
vs producer.send(Converter.convert(payload)); so I don't see how that is a real value add
to the JMS client.
>>>>> What we propose here is just providing a clean way to define the JMS
ObjectMessage internal serialisation. If Java serialisation isn't your cup of tea. (Which
for many reasons isn't for us, and I'm sure it's similar for others)
>>>>>>> On 1 Jun 2017, at 16:58, Timothy Bish <>
>>>>>>> On 06/01/2017 11:50 AM, Michael André Pearce wrote:
>>>>>>> Really this is much more about how an ObjectMessage serializes
the Object. As we have C++ clients etc that obviously won't be able to understand Java serialized
>>>>>>> We use Avro and a schema repo for our dto transfer over the wire,
it's been a real performance boost , and removed some core data issues, and really like to
use it over the JMS land.
>>>>>>> One can argue that you could manually code this that you serialize
the data manually first and then just manually send a BytesMessage.
>>>>>>> But I think taking some inspiration from other places where a
serdes pattern is done has really helped (Kafka), from a corporation user approach wiring
some prebuilt serdes into a factory is very easy, having duplicated code in many many apps
leaves for issues, and implementation divergence.
>>>>>>> The one downside of Kafka is it's lack of spec api, this is one
big sell of artemis as it's JMS compliant. Coding against JMS api for Java estate is a huge
win, this is suggesting taking some of the good bits :).
>>>>>>> Does camel expose this as some sort of JMS API wrapper? I thought
it was much more an EAI solution.
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> Camel does JMS transport:
>>>>>> Camel does AVRO:
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Jun 2017, at 15:18, Martyn Taylor <>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Timothy Bish <>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/01/2017 09:34 AM, Martyn Taylor wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Timothy Bish
<> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/01/2017 08:51 AM, Martyn Taylor wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I get the use case for using JSON/XML, particularly
for cross language
>>>>>>>>>>>> communication.
>>>>>>>>>>>> One way users get around this problem right
now is just to serialize
>>>>>>>>>>>> to/from XML/JSON at the client application
level and just use JMS
>>>>>>>>>>>> TextMessages to send the data. I guess the
idea here to remove that
>>>>>>>>>>>> complexity from the client application and
into the client via these
>>>>>>>>>>>> pluggable serializer objects?  Removing the
serizliation logic out of
>>>>>>>>>>>> code
>>>>>>>>>>>> and into configuration.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Providing I've understood this properly,
it seems like a good idea to
>>>>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>   so +1.
>>>>>>>>>>>> This problem has already been solved via
frameworks like Apache Camel,
>>>>>>>>>>> putting such complexity into the JMS client is
solving a problem that's
>>>>>>>>>>> already been solved and in much more flexible
and configurable ways.
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Tim.  I am not a Camel expert in any shape
or form, how much
>>>>>>>>>> additional complexity/configuration would be required
to do something
>>>>>>>>>> similar with Camel?  My understanding of the proposal
here is really just
>>>>>>>>>> to give control back to the user in terms of how
their objects are
>>>>>>>>>> serialized.  I'd expect this to be pretty light weight,
just allow a user
>>>>>>>>>> to configure a class to do the serialization.
>>>>>>>>> Camel offers conversions for a number of data formats
>>>>>>>> Sure.   Though, one of the drivers (mentioned in this thread)
for having
>>>>>>>> control over the de/serialization process was for performance.
>>>>>>>> to another format is going to obviously make this much worse.
>>>>>>>>> as well as routing amongst numerous protocols, have a
look at the
>>>>>>>>> supported data formats page:
>>>>>>>>> the transports
>>>>>>>>> This doesn't seem to be doing much more for the user
than moving the work
>>>>>>>>> they need to do around,
>>>>>>>> Well, it abstracts the de/serialization process out of application
>>>>>>>>> they still have to implement or configure the mechanics
of the
>>>>>>>>> transformation of the data format to the appropriate
JMS message type and
>>>>>>>>> back again.  Even if you bake in something to the client
to handle some
>>>>>>>>> common formats you will quickly find that it doesn't
meet everyone's needs
>>>>>>>>> and you'll end up implementing a poor mans Camel inside
>>>>>>>>> restricted client which seems less than ideal.
>>>>>>>> I agree reinventing the wheel (badly) is not a good idea.
 So, if Camel is
>>>>>>>> able to provide us with a solution to the problem, that addresses
>>>>>>>> issues outlined here.  Then, we should certainly look into
>>>>>>>> Cheers.
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Michael André Pearce
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think i might be getting the problem, use
case you want to go for,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to possible serialise to JSON or XML,
because they're supported well
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other languages like c++, which won't
read a java serialised object,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> say for XML you generate objects via
an XSD which by default aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> serialisable, so you cannot simply add
Serializable to the object, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> generated at build.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this the problem we need to solve?
If so:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To get around this normally the tools
that generate objects for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> serialisation from schema such as XSD
do support a way to toggle or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the generation slightly for some common
use cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In case of XSD, where using jaxb it would
be to add something like the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> below to jaxb global bindings:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <xs:annotation>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <xs:appinfo>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jaxb:globalBindings generateIsSetMethod="true">
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <xjc:serializable uid="12343"/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> </jaxb:globalBindings>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> </xs:appinfo>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> </xs:annotation>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like wise if you are generating POJO's
from a jsonschema using for say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tool jsonschema2pojo  there is a toggle
in the maven plugin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> serializable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you can switch to true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously if you hand crank your DTO
Pojo's then it's a case of simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implement  Serializable to the class.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Jun 2017, at 06:57, Michael André
Pearce <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we could but then it wouldn't work via
jms api. Typically if using jms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only custom or specific broker
object is the connection factory
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest you code to Jms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Jun 2017, at 04:10, Clebert
Suconic <>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:47 PM
Michael André Pearce <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jms api dictates class set in
object message to be serializable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We could make an extension. It
could be an extra message this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31 May 2017, at 22:37, Timothy
Nodine <>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should the interface require
the underlying class to be Serializable?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One use case might be to provide
serialization to classes that aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively serializable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael André Pearce
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To help discussion,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A very very basic
implementation just to simulate the idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CustomSerialisation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CustomSerialisation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n.b. doesn’t fully compile is just
pseudo impl, nor doesn’t include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bits as discussed below like
map/change type to a byte message for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compatibility, nor media
type idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clebert Suconic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Bish
>>>>>>>>>>> twitter: @tabish121
>>>>>>>>>>> blog:
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Tim Bish
>>>>>>>>> twitter: @tabish121
>>>>>>>>> blog:
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tim Bish
>>>>>> twitter: @tabish121
>>>>>> blog:
>>>> --
>>>> Tim Bish
>>>> twitter: @tabish121
>>>> blog:
>> --
>> Tim Bish
>> twitter: @tabish121
>> blog:

Clebert Suconic

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