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From artnaseef <>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Move the ActiveMQ web-console to a sub-project.
Date Fri, 31 Jan 2014 23:17:50 GMT
Hey James - there's a valuable lesson here.

In order to institute change in a community, it's wise to engage the
community early and get buy-in.  Coming after the fact with a change puts
it in a can't-look-good situation.  No matter what, such motives will be
questioned - that's natural.  Wouldn't you be upset if another group came
up with a patch/git-pull that completely replaces the existing webconsole
and integrates their own console that's not part of the activemq sources? 
Be careful how you answer - you don't want to open certain doors.

Anyway, there are a lot of talented people working on Apache, ActiveMQ, at
RedHat, and so on.  I'm sure this group could find ways to meet everyone's
needs.  The real question is just the way its done, impacts to the
community, strength of projects, and other impacts.  In fact, what I call
the "first rule of leadership" was violated -- "no involvement, no
commitment".  In other words, the outcome of this effort was doomed from
the start.

By the way, I believe is still a useful console for ActiveMQ,
whether it's bundled or not.

That brings this back to -- what is the real issue here?  And, can we find
a way to move forward together?

Take action. Accept it.  Or leave it.  All else is madness (paraphrasing
Ekhart Tolle).  Note that name calling, criticism, pointing blame,
messages of despair, etc are all in the "all else" category.  The funny
thing is that the madness belongs to, and hurts, the owner of said
actions, although they are painful for others to watch.  Ever see someone
walking down the street muttering to themselves and feel awkward....  same

If you are "accepting it", then "yes" we can all move on.

> On 31 January 2014 17:09, jgenender <> wrote:
>> Now need for ad hominem. ;-)  Pet the kitty a wee bit more and
>> take
>> 3 deep breaths. ;-)
>> I think there seems to be a major misunderstanding here, particularly on
>> your part.
>> No...Apache is not the center of the universe.  No Apache is not the
>> best
>> place for all projects.  It has its warts and it has its downsides,
>> bureaucracy, rules and regulations, and that doesn't work for everyone.
>>  Not
>> every project is a good fit for Apache.
>> To be very very clear, I never stated that you must/should bring your
>> project into Apache.  I never told you how to run your project.
>> That project is yours and I have no basis, nor have I made comments on
>> your
>> project, other than some compliments. i.e. is a neat/interesting
>> technology, etc etc.
>> I *did* say that the pimping of that project at Apache in its current
>> form
>> that clearly exposes a marketing angle for your host company was not
>> fair
>> to
>> the Apache communities, be it Camel, AMQ, Karaf, [put Apache project du
>> jour
>> here].
> Yes we had the cheek to develop an amazing kick ass modern console that
> really helps ActiveMQ developers & users get stuff done. Its awesome and
> we
> open sourced it. (BTW most companies keep this kinda stuff as a commercial
> product - check out what happens in Hadoop with commercial consoles from
> Cloudera / HortonWorks / DataStax et al). But at Red Hat we do
> *everything*
> OSS.
> But yes hawtio has a little non-corporate OSS logo in the top corner to
> give the open source community that did all the hard work a little credit
> (which is the Open Source Way (tm)). Pretty fucking evil eh! Do my evil
> powers know no bounds! Bwahahahah!
> However folks have complained. ActiveMQ must remain a pure Apache ivory
> tower; links to non-Apache open source projects will not be tolerated if
> they have a UI. I mean really - anything could happen right. Folks might
> vaguely indirectly learn that Red Hat actually fund lots of development of
> ASF licensed open source code at Apache and outside it. Jeez think of the
> children! Thats so unfair!
> Whatever - this is all old news. hawtio has been removed from ActiveMQ.
> User experience has been traded for ActiveMQ Apache's purity and hawtio's
> gone from the distro.
> Can we move on now?
>> I also said that it should be skinned at AMQ so that it fits in more
>> with a project's look and feel.  I also advocated that you guys may want
>> to
>> provide skinning as it would likely increase your adoption and
>> acceptance
>> of
>> it in many projects, not just Apache.  Yeah, those were some big
>> irritating
>> and offensive attacks!  Sorry about that James, sometimes I really need
>> to
>> watch those nasty comments! ;-)
>> You made your anti-Apache sentiments abundantly clear.
> I was answering your exact question.
> I'm not anti-Apache. Just given the choice when creating *new* projects,
> I'd prefer not to expose myself and fellow open source developers to the
> anti-Fuse/RedHat smear campaign and bullshit that comes from certain
> Savoir
> + Talend employees when working on Apache projects that they happen to
> sell
> services around. Hence my preference for github for new innovative
> projects
> where its pretty hard to run a smear campaign or waste precious time on
> bullshit.
>> That's fine.  But
>> then I have to ask you, why do you continue to develop here?
> Because I care passionately about the projects I invest in, helped build
> and promote. Unfortunately we have to just sit and take the bullshit from
> Savoir / Talendwhen employees when working on Apache projects. I'm not
> prepared to be bullied out of Apache though if thats what you're asking.
> You're not trying to threaten me now are you?
>>  If I had to
>> develop in a locale that was misery to me, I'd fork the darned thing and
>> be
>> done with it.
> Good for you.
> --
> James
> -------
> Red Hat
> Email:
> Web:
> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
> Blog:
> Open Source Integration
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